Mormon colony in Tierra del Fuego? Or elsewhere in North America besides Utah?

[katchen]

I was reading the resurrected TL on a possible British colony in Tierra del Fuego. I found it illuminating because of the information of what the climate is actually like down there and the barriers to British interest in the place, ( I seem to recall that the British did try a colony near what is now Ushuaia in the 1830s but that it failed). I got to thinking what it would take to motivate people to settle in such marginal land as Tierra del Fuego/Patagonia in the mid 19th Century and it occurred to me that the Mormons were facing a crisis of persecution in 1844, only a year after Chile established it's Punta Arenas colony and that for Easterners unfamiliar with desert conditions, Utah was as or more marginal land than Tierra del Fuego.
What if (and this would dovetail with the TL on early 1840s Texas gold discovery in Colorado) Utah had proven unacceptable for Mormon settlement, maybe because some Gentiles, maybe Texans had already established a settlement there or there was simply too much gold prospecting going on around Utah for Brigham Young to feel comfortably isolated there? There might have been some other possibilities (Vancouver Island had been mentioned and discarded) , Columbia Basin? Okanogan Valley? Skeena Valley of Northern Oregon? Upper Fraser Valley? Baja California?
but Brigham Young was looking for a home for the Mormon community at the same time that General Rojas was looking for settlers for Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia. If both could have become aware of each other's search, a land grant might have been worked out. Then it would be a matter of getting the Nauvoo community to New Orleans (probably the old way by flatboat down the Mississippi) and charter ships to bring them to Tierra Del Fuego, where converts from the UK and Norway (which was at the time a fertile mission field for LDS) could join them. The climate of Tierra del Fuego (or the rest of Pacific Patagonia) would not faze Norwegians, who could teach the rest of the community what it takes to survive agriculturally in a place with Tiera del Fuego's climate. The fact is that religion or the need to avoid religious Eventually (probably sooner, given the bitter civil war that developed in Argentina) or later, an indepndent nation of Deseret might exist, provided that the Monroe Doctrine deterrred the British from simply invading the place because of the offense to morality that legal polygamy anywhere in the English speaking world might represent. Or if the Mormons by then have settled far enough into Patagonia and increased their numbers enough to make any atempt outside takepver costly enough to fail, ultimately. I think that something like this would only have taken a few things butterflied to happen.
What do people think? Any LDS out there following this?

 

[Color-Copycat]

There are some Mormon colonies in northern Mexico, but they were founded in the second half of the 19th century. I don't know if it would've been feasible for them to set up shop in there in the 1840s though.

 

[CaliBoy1990]

IIRC, Union & Liberty had OTL's Manitoba get turned into Deseret; the southern part of the province does have good farmland, and if you can get cheap enough prices, and convince the British(or perhaps the Canadians), that they'll behave, then Voila! Manitoban Deseret is now in business.

Alternatively, Arizona, Nevada, Sonora, and maybe even Colorado or New Mexico could have been decent alternatives, as well. Or, if you want something really exotic, how about a Mormon *New Zealand(there are a fair number of them in the South Pacific IOTL, anyhow, particularly in Samoa & Tonga, and a few other places.)?

 

[katchen]

I think Brigham Young might have missed a bet not starting his settlement at Grand Junction CO, where the Colorado and the Gunnison Rivers meet. The colony would have had more water, for one thing, and still be able to expand in all directions, at least to the San Juan Mountains and the Gore Range of the Rockies. Plus they would have had all that silver and gold, (mostly silver) from Aspen and Redcliff and Ouray, Crested Butte and Telluride and Silverton. And probably exanded into the San Juan Basin around Durango as well as west to the Great Salt Lake.
Arizona and Sonora, there would have been some Mexicans to outnumber or drive out. Baja California would be surrounded by water.
As for Manitoba, I think if anything, the British would be even less tolerant of polygamy than Americans turned out to be. If the British could not bring a Manitoba Deseret to heel, they likely would have sold Manitoba to the United States/ Remember, this is the time that the silk hat comes into fashion and devalues beaver hats and therefore beaver furs. Hudson's Bay Company almost goes bankrupt. And then there's the question of how well the Mormons would get along with the Metis. I suppose the Mormons could always get some of the seclusion they needed by settling in the marshland between Lake Winnipeg and Lake Manitoba up to the Saskatchewan River. And perhaps learning from Lapp converts from Norway how to herd reindeer even further north. Now that would be interesting. A Deseret dominating the Northwest territories and what is now the Northern Prairie provinces. Again, a need to keep both the British and the Americans at bay.

 

[katchen]

New Zealand would be out because it was being settled by the Wakefield Company at the time.

 

[Petete123123]

Well, first of all its quite a journey. Then they need support because Argentina, Chile and the UK will come knocking the door.

Also there are like 8.000 natives that will mostly die in 50 years, but are present and likely a wildcard.

Besides, its not a cakewalk. It will take effort and time of which mormons are capable for sure, but that will certainly and more rewarding used in North America.

I mean, why travel that much when they've got tons of land just next to them. I mean, its doable, but in the end I see trouble with them settling in Patagonia. And to which country they will answer.

 

[katchen]

Because as it turned out, the Mormons did not go nearly far enough to outrun the United States. And that was what they needed to do to keep polygamy.
The Mormons were hoping that they could have an autonomous state making it's own laws if they colonized Utah. After all, it's supposed to be a United States. Right?
Wrong! The Civil War settled the issue of federal supremacy, at least until our time. And the federal government and Congress were not about to allow Utah to become a state until the LDS Church banned polygamy. Besides, Utah was, after the Mexican Cession, right on the road (and railroad) to California.
For what the Mormons really wanted, Tierra Del Fuego--some place where they could be surrounded by water on all or on three sides with no possiility of near neighbors and where land was marginal was what the Mormons needed in order to have what they needed. to be themselves, as they were in the mid 19th Century, the Mormons needed their own country.And Patagonia was one of the few places the mormons hada ny chances of achieiving that.

 

[DValdron]

Manitoba would be a tough sell, given that it was the homeland of the Metis. Only a generation later, they would rise up in one of Canada's most politicaly significant revolts - one that would result in the creation of the province of Manitoba.

 

[Zioneer]

As a Mormon, I don't think the pioneers would go all the way to Patagonia/Tierra Del Fuego. Too many people died just getting to Utah, they wouldn't have wanted to go that far.

The Mormons basically wanted a low-populated area that was unwanted by anybody else, was possibly to cheaply sail/walk to (so no Patagonia, that'd be too expensive unless someone helped pay for it), and which was arable (though not too fertile, lest it attract too many non-Mormons).

Manitoba is an intriguing idea, especially if the Mormons keep polygamy on the down-low and don't abuse it too much.

 

[katchen]

And settle between the Manitoba Great Lakes, which has fertile but swampy soil. Swamps can be drained for those willing to put work into it. We'd be looking at between Winnipeg and Norway House (can someone help me with a map?) . And on the west side of Lake Winnipegosis and Lake Manitoba. And probable settlement and control of the non-arable land up to Hudsons Bay and into the Barren Grounds to the Great Slave Lake. Reindeer can be herded up there, if someone from Lapland or Northern Norway will show the pioneers how and how to get domesticated reindeer to Hudson's Bay (though not for another 40 years). Yak and even alpaca and vicuna become possibilities up there too later in the 19th Century.. Yes, a Manitoba-Arctic Mormon state or province is very intriguing. Unlike in the US, there is literally no limit to it's expansion.

 

[DValdron]

And settle between the Manitoba Great Lakes, which has fertile but swampy soil.

You mean the interlake districts? That's straight farm land. Occupied by the Metis, who were a fusion of French/Scottish and Native. The Metis farmed, had stable communities, but were also pretty capable horsemen, seasonally travelling hundreds of miles on the Buffalo hunt. They were well adapted to the landscape and the climate, and had good relations with both the Natives and the Hudson Bay Company. I think it would be really hard to displace them.

Swamps can be drained for those willing to put work into it.

Not these swamps. Once you get past the interlake districts, then you get into the 'Swampy Cree' territories. You're looking at the bottom of the drainage basins for the Nelson, Churchill and Red Rivers - which between them drain as much of the continent as the entire Mississippi basin - it's a huge drainage catchment that empties in here.

Plus, if you actually dig out a map for this area, you found literally a million streams and rivers and lakes, winding in and out of each other to the point where you can't tell islands from mainland. It's a mess. There's no draining that. And even there, what passes for land is in most cases, permafrost and muskeg. You can't drain muskeg, you can't farm it, you can't build a house on it, nothing.

In Manitoba, the farthest north you get sustained agriculture is probably The Pas. Which, coincidentally, is where I happen to be writing from at this moment. The Pas is, by the way, from the Cree word "Opaskwaya" or "Pasquia" which means literally "the woods." Basically, it was solid enough land right around here that the indians could build their tribe, the whites could build a town and farmers could plow. Going west you get agriculture at higher latitudes in Saskatchewan and Alberta the landscape is different - actual soil, rather than swampy muskeg.

Beyond that, you've got local dry spots where you can have potato fields and hayfields stuff like that. Almost all of that will be occupied by the Cree Indians.

Go north, and the landscape changes - you get into dene territory, and the subarctic and arctic, muskeg gives way to tundra. Still lots of permafrost everywhere. It's very very hard to make a living off of that.

There's a reason that after you go past a certain point in the north, all the faces you see are brown. White agriculture just stopped functioning.

We'd be looking at between Winnipeg and Norway House (can someone help me with a map?) .

Google maps?

And on the west side of Lake Winnipegosis and Lake Manitoba. And probable settlement and control of the non-arable land up to Hudsons Bay and into the Barren Grounds to the Great Slave Lake.

Well, at that point, you're going north and west past Manitoba into Inuvik, northern Saskatchewan and Alberta, the Northwest territories. That's a vast stretch of inhospitable territory. I'm not sure how people are going to be making a living on non-arable land, particularly lands where the winter temperatures will go down to 50 below (I once walked two miles through 50 below temperatures - afterwards I was flat on my back for two days).

Reindeer can be herded up there, if someone from Lapland or Northern Norway will show the pioneers how and how to get domesticated reindeer to Hudson's Bay (though not for another 40 years).

True. The Caribou of the north are genetically identical to Reindeer, so there's every reason to think that Reindeer would survive and adept reindeer herders could make a living. But that's a huge skill leap. It's also a fairly nomadic lifestyle.

I remember (like I was there, lol), in the 19th century, there was a Danish project to get Reindeer onto Iceland and import some Lapps to show the Icelanders how to herd them. It was tough going, but a few small Reindeer herds did get established. The herding thing never went anywhere. Either the Lapps wouldn't go, or the Icelanders wouldn't take to it.

It goes to show you that it's at least somewhat feasible, but man, you are out there riding the ragged edge of plausible.

Yak

Yak maybe. But I'd think it would be even harder to import Yak than Reindeer. Still, not sailing off the edge of possibility.

and even alpaca and vicuna become possibilities up there too later in the 19th Century..

Hmmm. I dunno about those. I actually know a pair of Alpaca farmers in Manitoba. But they're south of Lake Winnipeg. I don't know how well Alpaca would do up north.

Yes, a Manitoba-Arctic Mormon state or province is very intriguing. Unlike in the US, there is literally no limit to it's expansion.

Then you should write a timeline. But I'll tell ya, I specialize in crazy things like Bear Cavalry or polar civilizations - but this... you've got an uphill battle. I'll confess to being a bit skeptical. I'd encourage you just to see how you do it.

 

[DValdron]

Also, you'd be moving into the heart of the Hudson Bay Company's fur trade territory - so your immigrants would be screwing with the economic lifelines of the closest thing this region had to a coherent government. A very widespread government with lots of stations, and with the ear of the British Crown.

Uphill battle, but hey, see what you can do with it.

 

[corditeman]

British Tierra del Fuego had a purpose...

...That's why I and Pete got into it. In essence, a naval colony replacing a failed mission station. Expansion was the result of (1) a shipwreck carrying Welsh to Patagonia (2) the Irish Famines (3) boundary disputes (4) refugees from Argentina and (5) some Maori who saw land lying unused.

Farming, ranching, a little gold, oil and gas. Also some of the worst alcoholic drink in the world - Fuegan Brandy - after a slug of that, any weather is tolerable. Like Newcastle Brown on acid.

I really, really can't see kyour Mormons going so far south, except by accident. Patagonia, maybe, or (to really screw things for Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay) a militant Mormon Uruguay that acquires independence with British support.

To be very naughty, what about the Mormons leasing Washington State from the British Empire, as an alternative to the USA getting it? Or is that too like a Mormonwank?

Thank you for reviving memories of BTdF - writing it was one of the craziest (and funniest) things I did.

 

[raharris1973]

Deseret south - Paraguay in the 1870s?

What about mass migration of polygamist Mormons to Paraguay in the aftermath of the war of the Triple Alliance, which decimated Paraguay's population and left it with a M-F ratio of 1:5 or more? It's a battle of hearts and minds of the Paraguayan widows between clean-cut Mormon migrant gentlemen and sister wives and the remaining male Catholic clergy and nuns appalled at a move away from Catholic religion and cultural values.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

They could all move to the Galapagos and pull off a Texas. There wasn't much of a population on the islands to speak of until the 1960s.

 

[Zioneer]

Paraguay is an interesting choice, though I think unlikely. the Story of a Party TL had the Mormons settle in Montana, which is a pretty good choice if you want to be left alone, I think.

If the legal dissolution of the LDS church in the 1880s and 1890s goes further (or begins a little earlier, before the annexation of Hawaii), perhaps you could have the Mormons fleeing to Hawaii, where they had a strong presence.

 

[CaliBoy1990]

What about mass migration of polygamist Mormons to Paraguay in the aftermath of the war of the Triple Alliance, which decimated Paraguay's population and left it with a M-F ratio of 1:5 or more? It's a battle of hearts and minds of the Paraguayan widows between clean-cut Mormon migrant gentlemen and sister wives and the remaining male Catholic clergy and nuns appalled at a move away from Catholic religion and cultural values.

Probably one of the most interesting ideas I've heard yet, TBH.

They could all move to the Galapagos and pull off a Texas. There wasn't much of a population on the islands to speak of until the 1960s.

And what about Hawaii? Now, granted, Dave bar Elias already tried this in his rather well-done "After The End" TL-191 fanTL but it's still rather a underexplored possibility, I think.

Also, what about Kansas or the Dakotas? Both of these areas have good farming land and the Mormon leaders could perhaps serve as mediators between the Natives and the Feds whenever things get really rough. If things go well enough, they might just be rewarded with their own patch of land somewhere in that area(though the eastern Dakotas is more likely than parts of Kansas, I'll admit!) instead of the largely barren rocky desert that was Utah.

 

[Zioneer]

If you want the Paraguay idea to work, I think having the Utah War delayed until right after the American Civil War instead of directly before it would work. Have the Utah war become bloodier (maybe Thomas Kane dies in the Civil War?), and have the Mormons flee to Mexico, then down to Paraguay after a few years.

 

[vultan]

Probably a stupid question, but what about South Africa?

 

[thekingsguard]

I've been wondering this too - in my Communist Confederacy TL, I've been debating what the Mormons fate would be, as I could see them trying to rebel after the CSA and failing horribly, resulting in a crack down on Mormons and a resulting Mormon diaspora - I'm still looking for a place outside of the OTL USA and Canada for them to eventually found a nation state. Tierra del Fuego is an interesting one, especially since Argentina ITTL also controls Chile. So are the Galapagos, though I fear the fates of the native animals if a nation centered on the islands was founded.