Morisco Newfoundland!?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=38481&highlight=Moorish+Newfoundland <-- the original thread that got me wondering.

Since I can't see to fire up a post that gets a responce I hope this one rolls my way since it's pretty out there.

Suppose Phillip II does not reconcile with the softer elements of society that prevented him from deporting the Morisco population of Spain following the revolt in 1568 and he decides to take much more drastic action (pretty drastic in OTL too). He resolutes to deport the whole Morisco population to la Isla de Terranova. He decides this is the right thing to do, despite massive skepticism and uneasiness from the church because 1) he thought keeping the Moriscos in Spain would eventually lead to a Turkish invasion of some-sort, or a Barbary attempt at a reconquest of Spain (aided by the Moriscos- this was a common notion at the time and was part of the reason why the Moriscos were being so ill-treated) and 2) he thought simply expelling the Moriscos southward to the Barbary lands or eastward to Christian kingdoms would simply give more man-power and soldiers to his enemies, and resoluted the only way to remedy the situation was to deport the Moriscos to some far off corner of the world where they couldn't cause any trouble. For good measure, the King thought it best to expunge as many Jewish conversos as well (although they were few in number enough would get overseas).

How would this whole thing be carried out?

The King would use a number of slave trawlers, overload them with prisoners, minimizing rations and provinsions because he and his advisors had no expectations for the Moriscos to survive (nor did they care much). Many Spanish soldiers and sailors however did give food and drink to the Moriscos, with many leaving them with animals and such (it depended on the ship however and was still not common). According to wiki (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_ship) an offhand comment with no validity whatsoever said the deaths were about 1/3 of all slaves. We can pretend this holds for the Moriscos, and perhaps a bit more due to the fact tens of thousands are being moved overseas. The actual "expulsion" is over a 2 year period, with periodic dumpings done throughout the year. I don't think it'd be possible to deport the whole Morisco population, and the dumpings would be interspersed with rumor in Morisco ghettos; so I'm sure hundreds would try and escape (and probably succeed). Assuming perhaps at the highest number, out of an estimated 300,000 Moriscos Spain manages to deport 180,000 to Newfoundland, about half of whom die on the voyage there and another 30-60% from poor weather, disease, malnutrition etc. what are the immediate and long-term ratifications of this?

I don't think Newfounland is very fertile (as mentioned), and the Avalon Peninsula perhaps a few sparse coastal settlements would be about all they'd have to live on. I'm not sure though; is there anyway Newfoundland could sustain a local population? Undoubtably, if their population stabalized they'd look for better; in which case, is Labrador or Acadia possible points of migration and if so, are they fertile enough to sustain a population?

Another factor is; would all the ships get there? There's a good chance many would lose their way and perhaps simply dump their human cargo on any old island or even in the ocean =/. These would make for horrible tales but might spread the Morisco population out over a larger area. Newfoundland was quite far and explorers were notoriously bad back then at re-finding already explored areas; would it be fair to say the Moriscos might be dumped mostly on Newfoundland, but with other scattered populations in and around the Atlantic region?

As well another question would be that of the Morisco religion, status and culture. Newfoundland was considered a Spanish possession at the time; would Moriscos be considered Spanish subjects? It's undoutably true that some Moriscos would return to Islam, hating Spain for deporting them and basically treating them like dirt for years. Without anyone to boss them around they could return to some of their older customs such as dress, and perhaps if society was going well enough they could rebuild the bathhouses or what have you. Would this lead to a resurgance in Islamic literature as well and perhaps even an Arabic alphabet for the Spanish language (assuming they get very hardcore about their religion and language?) Perhaps even "New World Arabic"? Their relations with the Beothuk are also in question; let's assume the lighter path and they are able to adapt to the fishing life-style. Do they make war? Conquer? Inter-mix?

Discuss!
 
This is completely ASBish. Even though we are talking about an king of the XVI it is unthinkable that he would treat them that way. You are talking of a society that a few decades before questioned herself about the legitimacy of the conquest of the Americas. Exiling them is one thing, although there was a risk of them cooperating with the north african kingdoms and treating them as slaves was another thing very different.
 
Yeah it's definately touching the boundaries of ASB, if not stepping over itself. I don't want to stick it in ASB mostly because it was considered (along with a whole load of really weird options).

treating them as slaves was another thing very different.

I read two books from the library on the way they (Spain) looked at the Moriscos. There was a very large opposition to enslaving the Moriscos, which was a possability considered by Phillip II as well as all these other absurd options. The fact of the matter was enslaving the Moriscos didn't seem to be fair to the Christian code of ethics, which according to the two books I read was the main inspiration for the exile. Many christian priests wanted to convert the Moriscos "fully", as most Spaniards thought them to be insincere and all crypto-Muslims.

I don't think it's completely ASB for them to consider moving them all off. I think where it gets absurd, and why I'm having troubles imagining them actually doing it is the amount of effort and manpower they'd have to put in to moving the Moriscos overseas.

There was a few major influencial inquisitors who despite Phillip II's will to banish the Moriscos, did some major damage to those leaving their cities. Had the pacifist movement in Spain not been so strong, there's a chance Phillip might've done something as horrible as this; I don't think suggesting Phillip II and Spain weren't capable of marooning the Muslims out at sea. I think it's whether they'd go through with it.

Now whether they'd be treated as slaves along the journey; I think it'd be more likely they'd use slave trawlers and treat them badly rather then whip them and make them do hard labor. See, I don't know how'd they'd transport that many Moriscos in the first place; but maybe it can be done? Help ; )

And yes, this is a very implausible situation that did not occur in OTL for good reasons. But the fun of alternate history is that sometimes, really weird things do happen, and this is a weird thing I wanted to experiment with =P
 
The problem I see with your scenario is just the identification transport=slave ship.

Simply, slave ships were that horrid because the owner had only one or a few ships and wanted each trip to be as profitable as possible. A king with the biggest fleet in the world at his full disposal doesn't need to do that (the exile isn't profitable in the first place anyway so who cares about the cost). In fact, there is no reason why the deportation would be made at once, even. The Moriscos could be concentrated in camps near certain portuary cities and gradually shipped to the Americas.

I've wondered sometimes what could have happened if the target place was *Virginia instead of Newfoundland.
 
That's a great point.

I've been wondering myself about the logistics of such an overseas exile. I understand it's kind of absurd but, like I say there are lots of these absurdities (though often they failed) of deportations like this or you know.

Logistically then, do you think the deportation of that many Moriscos would simply be unfeasible, and after awaile they might stop?

One thing too is; would they be even able to get to Newfoundland? I mean, supposing they did use slave ships or cargo ships or part of the Spanish fleet, do you think they'd actually pull the voyage through and be able to locate the island or would they dump the Moriscos on some Caribbean island or in Florida or Georgia or yeah Virginia or something.
 
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