More successful Odl Catholic Church

[Susano]

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So, basically, in the 19th century, some catholics in Germany, Austria and Switzerland split off due to being pissed off with the 1st Vatican Council, especially the doctrine of papal infabillity. Now, despite the time sbeing very good for such a thing, the Old Catholic Church stayed at some 10k members only.

However, Bismarck was having his Kulturkampf at this time, and the Habsburg family had some great personal sympathy to the movement (but of course they were restrained by political realities) - Francis Jospeh even declared the Austrian concordate void because the treaty partner had become another one, an "infallible" one. So it seems to me in both countries at the time there is room for Church to grow. It could become a pool for both modern and German-nationalist Catholics (the latter happened o some degree in Austria due to the close Habsburg-Vatican ties)... not really much of a contradiction, since liberal nationalism was still going strong. While Habsburg Austria would not have liked such tendencies, still Habsburg sympathy for anti-Vatican I resentments could have led them to be more sympathetic and supporting towards the Old Catholics.

So, what would happen if the Old Catholics do become a major religious movement?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Link

So, basically, in the 19th century, some catholics in Germany, Austria and Switzerland split off due to being pissed off with the 1st Vatican Council, especially the doctrine of papal infabillity. Now, despite the time sbeing very good for such a thing, the Old Catholic Church stayed at some 10k members only.

However, Bismarck was having his Kulturkampf at this time, and the Habsburg family had some great personal sympathy to the movement (but of course they were restrained by political realities) - Francis Jospeh even declared the Austrian concordate void because the treaty partner had become another one, an "infallible" one. So it seems to me in both countries at the time there is room for Church to grow. It could become a pool for both modern and German-nationalist Catholics (the latter happened o some degree in Austria due to the close Habsburg-Vatican ties)... not really much of a contradiction, since liberal nationalism was still going strong. While Habsburg Austria would not have liked such tendencies, still Habsburg sympathy for anti-Vatican I resentments could have led them to be more sympathetic and supporting towards the Old Catholics.

So, what would happen if the Old Catholics do become a major religious movement?

My guess is that the initial split is like Henry VIII's creation of Anglicanism, change in authority but not in substance. How it evolves thereafter would be interesting.

If a major chunk of the European Catholic population split off, there would be a much stronger tendency for others to do the same later. So, if the French church or the Brazilian church or the American one doesn't like what the Pope says, they split off, too. Over the next century, there would be lots of schism and re-unions, and the church today might be very different.

I would suspect that the doctrine of Papal Infallibility might have to be repealed.

A knocking down of the autocratic status of the Bishop of Rome might allow interesting ecumenical developments - with the loss of centralization, you've gotten rid of one of the major objections Anglicans (e.g.) have with the current RC church, and you might end up with World Council of Catholic Churches that included the Romans, the initial Old Catholics, some of the other break-away catholic churches, the Anglicans, and maybe some of the minor churches (Syriacs? Ethiopians?). Maybe even one or two of the Scandanavian Lutheran churches, although that's less likely.

The reduced status of the Bishop of Rome would also allow better relations, maybe even a (nominal) reunion with the Orthodox churches. Of course, where that leaves the Uniates, I don't know.

 

[black angel]

the Old Catholics are older than the 1st Vatican Council, in the Netherlands it dates back to 1700, when the Pope broke a 1520 rule and tried the Bishop of Utrecht in Rome with the Bishop there, because the people of Utrecht had (since 1125) elected their own Bishop and since 1520 no clergy or laity could be tried by Rome the people of Utrecht told the Pope to shove it their Bishop (really apostolic vicar) stayed on 3 more years, they then elected a new guy, who was made a Bishop and he made Bishops for Deventer, Haarlem and Groningen all with out the Pope's ok, the Pope freaked and excommunicated them (though they had the right to do it) the anti-papal Calvinists gave a lot of tolerance to the old Catholic that they didn't to the larger Catholic population, I've always wondered what if most Dutch Catholics left the Church of Rome for the Church of Utrecht? as of right Catholics are something like 30% of the Netherlands' population