More successful Jewish Khazaria

Lateknight

Banned
Is there any way this nation could have more success in it's history ? Can it or successor nations survive to the present day and if it's successful can it remain jewish?
 
Is there any way this nation could have more success in it's history ? Can it or successor nations survive to the present day and if it's successful can it remain jewish?

The former, yes. The latter; possible, but hard, since Khazaria is in the direction of incoming nomads, and furthermore, is perfect terrain for said incoming nomads.
 
Medieval "nation" is more or less an anachronism, especially for a steppe empire whom main social structure would be tribal.
Less "Khazaria" than "Khazar khaganate", eventually.

As an aside, Judaism may have concerned maybe 1/4 of the population elite : as all steppe empires, Khazars didn't focused too much on religious matters, and even less on enforcing it to themselves.

That said.

The main issue Khazars faces is they were right in the way of other turkic khaganates and realms in Europe. Whoever migrated in Europe was bound to come first on them.
Furthermore, due to the tribal structure of the khaganate, other peoples maintained a distinct identity and interests, as Magyars : would the khaganate be weaken, they would move on their own.
Eventually, more structurated entities (as Rus') or more dynamic (as Cumans) eventually took on them gradually.

For answering the OP, It depends on how you tought your question.
It is about a surviving Jewish Khazar khagante?
A surviving Jewish Khazaria entity, but not necessarily independent?
Either, but Judaity not being necessary?

The first : I don't think so. It's going to be too isolated, in a time where religion was an important marker and diplomatic marker (As, today, diplomacy between Democracies and Dictatorships can be)

The second...Maybe. If Judaism roots more among the Khazar population, and serves as an identity feature, you could have a minority as Kamulks

The third, given the situation and how it was made, I don't think so. Save an out of nowhere institution transformation, or Khazars conquering or being included as sort of "march rulers" , parts of a more structurated and bureaucratized entity (as Byzance or Persia), it would be hard.
It would be hard to reach and would ask for Khazars to convert to a given religion (Christianism or Islam, after all they did the latter IOTL) but could work.
 

Lateknight

Banned
Medieval "nation" is more or less an anachronism, especially for a steppe empire whom main social structure would be tribal.
Less "Khazaria" than "Khazar khaganate", eventually.

As an aside, Judaism may have concerned maybe 1/4 of the population elite : as all steppe empires, Khazars didn't focused too much on religious matters, and even less on enforcing it to themselves.

That said.

The main issue Khazars faces is they were right in the way of other turkic khaganates and realms in Europe. Whoever migrated in Europe was bound to come first on them.
Furthermore, due to the tribal structure of the khaganate, other peoples maintained a distinct identity and interests, as Magyars : would the khaganate be weaken, they would move on their own.
Eventually, more structurated entities (as Rus') or more dynamic (as Cumans) eventually took on them gradually.

For answering the OP, It depends on how you tought your question.
It is about a surviving Jewish Khazar khagante?
A surviving Jewish Khazaria entity, but not necessarily independent?
Either, but Judaity not being necessary?

I just wanted to know the possibility of it surviving in any form though like to know more about the probably of it remaining jewish as that is what first intersted me in it.
 
I just wanted to know the possibility of it surviving in any form though like to know more about the probably of it remaining jewish as that is what first intersted me in it.

I edited a bit my previous answer, but basically...

As Jewish Khazars surviving without being independent : possible, but small. Think at best Kamulk or Tatar Crimean scale.

As Jewish Kharar Khaganate : really unlikely

A surviving Khazar entity : hard, but possible if migrating southwards in the VIth century. Hardly recognizable from historical Khazars, though, and probably not surviving up to nowadays.
 
Could the Khazars somehow split their tribes and migrate in the different directions if they start to decline? Kinda like how Kubrat divided the Bulgar tribes, with Kotrag's tribe settling in the Volga and Asparukh's tribe settling in the Danube, but much bigger? I am thinking of actually having a Jewish Khazarian successor state appear in Thunder from the Danube, though I'm not sure if a Khazar successor state could be established in a much more secure place.
 
Could the Khazars somehow split their tribes and migrate in the different directions if they start to decline?
I don't think so : Old Bulgaria was more of a confederation than actual tribal hegemony as Khazars. It eventually favoured split, as well the really limited lifespawn of Old Bulgaria (you don't easily split up a domination that lasted some centuries, allowing Khazars to be tied up with precise regional structures).

Even this, only partial, migration happened not because of a start of decline, but because Khazars pushed them.
I would doubt they would react that radically in face of Rus' raids (as their power was partially based on the control of trade, roads, something that didn't really existed for Old Bulgaria)

Admitting Khazars split and migrate at the Xth century, where'd they go?
In Byzantium, ally of their Christian foes (Rus', Alans), in a Buyid controlled Middle-East? Or would they follow Magyars, then relativly well established?
It doesn't let much room for gaining power there. I fear their ownly choice at this moment, would be to be assimilated.
 
I don't think so : Old Bulgaria was more of a confederation than actual tribal hegemony as Khazars. It eventually favoured split, as well the really limited lifespawn of Old Bulgaria (you don't easily split up a domination that lasted some centuries, allowing Khazars to be tied up with precise regional structures).

Even this, only partial, migration happened not because of a start of decline, but because Khazars pushed them.
I would doubt they would react that radically in face of Rus' raids (as their power was partially based on the control of trade, roads, something that didn't really existed for Old Bulgaria)

Admitting Khazars split and migrate at the Xth century, where'd they go?
In Byzantium, ally of their Christian foes (Rus', Alans), in a Buyid controlled Middle-East? Or would they follow Magyars, then relativly well established?
It doesn't let much room for gaining power there. I fear their ownly choice at this moment, would be to be assimilated.

Maybe Anatolia? Although I'm not sure if having Seljuq (or some other Khazar general) convert to Judaism instead of Islam would work.
 
Maybe Anatolia? Although I'm not sure if having Seljuq (or some other Khazar general) convert to Judaism instead of Islam would work.

By the late Xth, Anatolia was still under Byzantine control. If some Khazars (while I don't really see that happening, critically because of the relative strength of their Khaganate before the fall) decides to migrate under Pecheneg/Alan/Rus' pressure, it would probably at this moment as their fall was quite quick as well their assimilation into Pecheneg (not that they couldn't migrate afterwards, but they would be hardly distinguishable).

For Seljuq, it's actually possible that Seljuk had an history with Khazars, maybe as officer. Interestingly his history point out that for being successful in a world where the two powers (Abassids and Byzantines) put religion as an important marker, conversion would be mandatory.

Eventually, a turkic Christian migration would likely be assimilated into Byzantium, but BG would probably know better about it.
 
Top