More secular Turkey

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by General Ripper, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. General Ripper Well-Known Member

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    May 21, 2016
    OK, so how can we get Turkey ( with the POD after proclamation of Republic ) that is more secular/less islamist- in a way that say various islamist political parties never are strong enough that they can get into power or even become strongest party?

    Bonus if that Turkey is without 8 Kurdish-majority provinces: Hakkari, Sirnak, Mardin, Diyarbakir, Siirt, Van, Bitlis and Batman.

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  2. General Ripper Well-Known Member

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    At least about lack of Kurdistan, that should be easy enough. Let's just say that Mustafa Kemal wakes up one morning and realises that because it's full of Kurds and not Turks, it's more trouble than worth for Turkey. But important question is, even if Turkey retreats from there, what will happen with that area? Kurdish Republic? Or Iraq/British will try to pick them up? Or maybe the French ( from Syria )? Or Iran maybe? All three together?
     
  3. General Ripper Well-Known Member

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    So, nobody is willing to comment?
     
  4. Minchandre Well-Known Member

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    You can't impose secularism from the top down, like the Kemalists tried.

    The only way to get Turkey more secular is the same way that most countries become secularist: education and prosperity (the latter mostly because it promotes the former).
     
  5. General Ripper Well-Known Member

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    I agree in general. But, man could argue that top-down secularism was the foundation of Turkish education/prosperity- it created basic conditions for education/prosperity.
     
  6. raharris1973 Well-Known Member

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    Haven't rural, ex-rural and ethnic Kurdish voters tended to be more favorable to Islamist parties. The loss of the 8 provinces isn't just a bonus, it can help make the main idea of greater secularism happen in the first place.
     
  7. AshiusX Well-Known Member

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    Dec 31, 2014
    Adding more religious diversity to Turkey. After all, secularism arose in Europe in the first place to account for all of the conflicting religions/ denominations as an attempt to promote tolerance. With more religious minorities in Turkey, there will be greater call for secularism. Secularism will be seen as a tool of symbol of unity for various types of people in Turkey.

    So, prevent all of those ethnic cleansing after and during World War 1.
     
  8. General Ripper Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, maybe even the opposite is the case. IMHO, Turkish Islamists also do see Islam as unifying force that can help unite Kurds, Arabs, Zazas, Turks etc.- into Turks. So, maybe with less ethnic diversity ( without the Kurds ), maybe there would be less impetus for that. Because islamists will not be able to see non existing Kurds/Greeks/Armenians as a threat.
     
  9. General Ripper Well-Known Member

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    May 21, 2016
    Yes, maybe.
     
  10. Max Sinister Retired Myriad Club Member

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    Kemal won a war against Greece. If he is a secularist, shouldn't that impress the Turks? "If someone like him dares to defy Islam, secularism can't be all wrong"?
     
  11. Minchandre Well-Known Member

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    Secularism became popularized by a country that was almost 100% Catholic. The Ottoman Empire, for example, managed to keep all its religious minorities pretty happy through a system of plularism (that is, religion was still an important part of government and society, but multiple religious structures exist in parallel). Most European countries followed something not too dissimilar. Pillarization in Belgium and the Netherlands, for example. And despite national diversity in Euoprean countries, basically every country but Germany, Russia, Switzerland, and the UK was more or less a single church (be it Catholic or Lutheran or whatever), and a smattering of Jews. And it's not like Russia was a paragon of religious tolerance. The UK was probably the most secular of those nations, and it still had an established church was fairly far-reaching powers (like seats in the legislature).

    In fact, even though he was a secularist, Ataturk was also very, very nationalist, and religion was tied up fairly heavily into that. The Greek-Turkish population transfer, for example, moved Christians to Greece and Muslims to Turkey, regardless of language and historical presence (for example, heavily Turkified Christians in Istanbul were expelled, as were completely 100% Greek families that had converted to Islam at some point over 500 years for whatever reason). Ataturk was OTL not super great with minorities (e.g., the Kurds), especially minorities that didn't want to assimilate.

    It might have helped if he wanted them to adopt another sect, but abandoning religion altogether? It's hard to make the argument, "Look what my lack of God has brought us! Clearly only by secularizing can we bring the great Seculos to bless us!"
     
  12. General Ripper Well-Known Member

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    May 21, 2016
    Indeed, and this Turkey ( after Greek exchange, Armenian genocyde and without these 8 Kurdish majority provinces ) would be allmost 100% Muslim and Turkish.