More reasonable Islam?

[Leo Caesius]

What kind of numbers would you say a language has to get down to before it is in irreparable decline?

That's a very tough question. It depends on how isolated the language is and whether it is being passed down to the next generation.

For instance, the rule of thumb is 10,000 or fewer speakers, but if those 10,000 are out in the middle of nowhere, without TV, radio, or compulsory education in the national language, then short of being decimated the language will continue to thrive. On the other hand, if you have a minor Chinese dialect (say a couple hundred thousand speakers or even a million or more) spoken in a highly developed region surrounded and intermixed with tens or hundreds of millions of Mandarin speakers, subject to TV, radio, compulsory education, and military conscription, all requiring knowledge of Mandarin, then chances are that the dialect will die out in a few generations if not faster.

 

[EmptyOne]

Everyone but me, apparently.

ENGLISHMAN: Stranded in Indonesia without a phrasebook! Luckily for me I took Javanese back in Oxbridge. I say, sir! Er, Googly woogly! Dum-diddy-bom-bom, toot sweet, savvy?

Umm ... that was rude ...

 

[AJNolte]

But in Germanic kingship for one, the king was the effective spiritual leader of his people, in a way that the Caliphs would have found pretty familiar. With the introduction of Christianity, this changed a little, but the precedent had a lot of consequences for European Christianity in such episodes as the Investiture Controversy.

Yes, yes it did. However, let's keep in mind who won that go-round.
Could we imagine, for example, the Byzantine Emperor nealing outside the patriarchal palace because he had intervened in the selection of a Bishop? I'll admit to being less familiar with the Islamic situation, but I'd imagine the Caliph would have broad authority religiously as well.

And how did this discussion get side tracked into appologia for or against the present-day Republic of Turkey's Kurdish policy anyway (which is a wolf-by-the-ears controversy for all concerned if ever I've seen one anyway)?

Though I confess a post-WWI AH where the Treaty of Sevres was implemented might make for interesting reading.

 

[MrP]

Umm ... that was rude ...

Actually, the comic character Englishman was created partly to lampoon our awful national habits of condescending to villainous foreign types ( ) and refusing to speak any language other than English. In the past, for example, he's been thoroughly rude and ignorant about Islam and Arabic - and it's turned out that he can't actually speak Arabic and just made up his own Floobly-woobly-ooble style of speech, that means nothing. I suspect this is what Nek's referring to.

 

[rad_vsovereign]

Yes, yes it did. However, let's keep in mind who won that go-round.
Could we imagine, for example, the Byzantine Emperor nealing outside the patriarchal palace because he had intervened in the selection of a Bishop? I'll admit to being less familiar with the Islamic situation, but I'd imagine the Caliph would have broad authority religiously as well.

The Caliph is the Prince of Believers. He has temporal and spiritual authority over the Muslims. Sorta Holy Roman Emperor & Pope combine in one or like the Emperor & Patriach as one person.

This is, of course, ideally. The Ottoman Caliph-Sultan weakened themselves by appointing Shaikh-ul-Islam (in my opinion) who functioned like some sort of Pope-Patriach. In the end these Shaikhs joined hands with the Janissary to stall reforms until it was too late

 

[AJNolte]

The Caliph is the Prince of Believers. He has temporal and spiritual authority over the Muslims. Sorta Holy Roman Emperor & Pope combine in one or like the Emperor & Patriach as one person.

This is, of course, ideally. The Ottoman Caliph-Sultan weakened themselves by appointing Shaikh-ul-Islam (in my opinion) who functioned like some sort of Pope-Patriach. In the end these Shaikhs joined hands with the Janissary to stall reforms until it was too late

Could be interesting if the Shaek stayed out of political matters and focussed on religious ones, serving as a prophetic voice for the Caliph rather than an ally of the Janisaries.
This could bring about the result mentioned at the beginning of this very long and oft-sidetracked thread.

 

[Leo Caesius]

And how did this discussion get side tracked into appologia for or against the present-day Republic of Turkey's Kurdish policy anyway (which is a wolf-by-the-ears controversy for all concerned if ever I've seen one anyway)?

Though I confess a post-WWI AH where the Treaty of Sevres was implemented might make for interesting reading.

It happens. Few discussions here escape getting side-tracked. Apologia, though, is an ugly word. Did you actually have something to contribute or is this just your way of telling us how much you like us?

As it happens, the words for wolf and Kurd are virtually identical in Turkish.

 

[Nicole]

As it happens, the words for wolf and Kurd are virtually identical in Turkish.

Really? Is it a linguistic connection, or is it just a strange coincidence?

 

[Leo Caesius]

Really? Is it a linguistic connection, or is it just a strange coincidence?

It's just a coincidence, but you have to be very careful. The Turkish equivalent to the Neo-Nazis are known as the "Grey Wolves" and all it takes is an umlaut to make them "Grey Kurds." I assume that they wouldn't find this funny.

 

[Calgacus]

It's just a coincidence, but you have to be very careful. The Turkish equivalent to the Neo-Nazis are known as the "Grey Wolves" and all it takes is an umlaut to make them "Grey Kurds." I assume that they wouldn't find this funny.

They might not, but I do.

 

[Keenir]

As it happens, the words for wolf and Kurd are virtually identical in Turkish.

gives new meaning to Ataturk's nickname, then..."Grey Wolf".

...at least, I heard it was his nickname.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Everyone but me, apparently.

ENGLISHMAN: Stranded in Indonesia without a phrasebook! Luckily for me I took Javanese back in Oxbridge. I say, sir! Er, Googly woogly! Dum-diddy-bom-bom, toot sweet, savvy?

Ooh, man.. a Xenophobic Racist is here?!! Oh,shi..!! My allergy... suddenly... aaaAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

 

[AJNolte]

It happens. Few discussions here escape getting side-tracked. Apologia, though, is an ugly word. Did you actually have something to contribute or is this just your way of telling us how much you like us?

As it happens, the words for wolf and Kurd are virtually identical in Turkish.

Um: just asking.

I don't consider appologia an ugly word actually: if you believe something is true go ahead and argue for it. I've been called an appologist for several things, sometimes with validity. And if I'm a direct person: if I didn't like you I'd probably just come right out and say it. I'm just quite interested in the original topic is all.

Didn't know that about Kurdish = wolf. Wasn't there also a Turkish right-wing org called the gray wolves or am I confused? (Edit: now I've seen that you've already mentioned it).

So: liberal Islam? Any further ideas as to how to make more liberal strands predominate?

 

[Nekromans]

Ooh, man.. a Xenophobic Racist is here?!! Oh,shi..!! My allergy... suddenly... aaaAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

ENGLISHMAN: My goodness, it speaks English! Well, that's the last time I trust the Mail for travel advice! (clears his throat) I say, old chap, take me to the airport and I'll give you a shiny penny! (THE CILIT BANG GUY pops up briefly, but is dragged away by security guards.)

XENOPHOBO-PHOBIC GUY: Suffo...cating...

ENGLISHMAN: I say, why are you rolling around on the floor like that? Is it some sort of tribal custom? It looks rather fun, actually...

ENGLISHMAN falls to the floor and begins rolling around gargling, with occasional cries of "Rather relaxing, eh?" XENOPHOBO-PHOBIC GUY soon stops rolling around, and lies very still. ENGLISHMAN doesn't seem to notice.

 

[Nekromans]

gives new meaning to Ataturk's nickname, then..."Grey Wolf".

...at least, I heard it was his nickname.

Does Grey Wolf know about this?

 

[Calgacus]

So: liberal Islam? Any further ideas as to how to make more liberal strands predominate?

Stop bombing the crap out of them?

 

[Nekromans]

Stop bombing the crap out of them?

But that takes all the fun out of it, apparently.

 

[Advernt]

Both sides had it's fanatics and deviants , all though I've never heard of an extremist medival Christian quoting from the bible to justify murdering others of differing religions .

That being said , ( And I apologise for resurrecting that debate ) , it is curious as to why the Chrisitian nations underwent the Rennaisance , a more dynamic social and philosophical system , developed a technological lead , triggered the Enlightenment and founded secularisation .

Is'nt it a fact that cultures and societies are partially shaped by their religion ? After all , how would , say , a hypothethical Christian North Africa differ from the OTL Muslim North Africa with everything else , including history remained constant ?

What made Europe so unique ? Did , in the opinions of the board members , Christanity played a large role in the development of Europe , contributing to it's rise in a positive way?

A lengthly justification might be helpful

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Though I confess a post-WWI AH where the Treaty of Sevres was implemented might make for interesting reading.

Interesting? How about incredibly boring through overuse? Not to mention genocidal. And the Kurds didn't get a country out of that anyway. In fact a great deal of them would have ended up in Armenia where they would have been utterly wiped out.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The simple answer would be for the powers to not cynically occupy Muslim countries in the 19th c when much of the Muslim world was undergoing liberal-democratic reform.

The Ottomans did it from 1839-1877, but the wwar with Russia put an end to political liberalism, although it continued in other fields, then Turkey continued to build on this, in some areas, but only really started in fits and starts after WWII.

Egypt has a fairly powerful assembly upon British occupation, and Tunis had an organic law that was constiution-ish until the French forced its cancellation.

If these movements had had that extra 130 years to continue uninterrupted, you would probably have a much more liber Islamic world today. Maybe not in Afghanistan or other backward areas, but in the Islamic "heartland".

Um: just asking.

I don't consider appologia an ugly word actually: if you believe something is true go ahead and argue for it. I've been called an appologist for several things, sometimes with validity. And if I'm a direct person: if I didn't like you I'd probably just come right out and say it. I'm just quite interested in the original topic is all.

Didn't know that about Kurdish = wolf. Wasn't there also a Turkish right-wing org called the gray wolves or am I confused? (Edit: now I've seen that you've already mentioned it).

So: liberal Islam? Any further ideas as to how to make more liberal strands predominate?