More reasonable Islam?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Cornish has no native speakers - the last one died a couple hundred years ago. It may be taught at some schools, but any such attempt would be reviving the language rather than preserving it. The black country and Suffolk have dialects but these aren't distinct enough to have separate classes in them. Even Scots is probably not distinct enough for that, although it is barely intelligible from English.

EDIT: Just checked Wiki, and the UK actually has no de jure official language. Cornish on the other hand is recognised as a official UK minority language.

I don't think that having a single language of education is the same thing as oppressing a minority. Given that contrary to general opinion, and I don't know how many times I have to say it, that the Kurds and Turks are intermixed throughout Turkey, it would be difficult to offer parallel school systems, and that would just lead to apartheid. A large percentage (as many as a third) of Turkish Kurds live in Istanbul. What do you do? Bus all the Kurds to a separate school?

 

[Valdemar II]

I don't think that having a single language of education is the same thing as oppressing a minority. Given that contrary to general opinion, and I don't know how many times I have to say it, that the Kurds and Turks are intermixed throughout Turkey, it would be difficult to offer parallel school systems, and that would just lead to apartheid. A large percentage (as many as a third) of Turkish Kurds live in Istanbul. What do you do? Bus all the Kurds to a separate school?

No, but they could receive extra hours after school, we do that for the Turks who wishes that here.

 

[stevep]

How many English State schools teach in minority languages?

Pasha

I think in a lot of the schools with large numbers of various minority groups there is some aid for conversion to English at least. As well as the ability in many to learn languages other than English.

However the key point in Calgacus's question was the ‘permitted’. It may not be the case any longer but there used to be a lot of publicity about Kurds being denied the right to learn their language in school, or even Turkish officials denying the existence of the Kurds as a people.

Sounds from some of the comments like the situation is improving however.

Steve

 

[Calgacus]

I don't think that having a single language of education is the same thing as oppressing a minority. Given that contrary to general opinion, and I don't know how many times I have to say it, that the Kurds and Turks are intermixed throughout Turkey, it would be difficult to offer parallel school systems, and that would just lead to apartheid. A large percentage (as many as a third) of Turkish Kurds live in Istanbul. What do you do? Bus all the Kurds to a separate school?

Of course not. What I would advocate is classes in Kurdish in Turkish schools, certainly in the areas of greatest Kurdish concentration.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Of course not. What I would advocate is classes in Kurdish in Turkish schools, certainly in the areas of greatest Kurdish concentration.

Why? The Kurds already speak Kurdish. You seem to think it's a dying language or something.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Most people were unaware that the Kurds were a separate people, because most Turks, although strongly nationalist, still based their identity on being Muslim. So Turk=Muslim. Kurds are Muslims that live in the mountains, hence Mountain Turks. Up to 25% of the population has Circassian blood, they're Cherkez Turks, Arab Turks, etc.

Once rural migration to the cities began that began to become patently false, but it also coincided with a Soviet-backed secessionist terror campaign, and that was not going to go over well with a bunch of parinoid xenophobic generals.

Nobody has any objection to acknoledgement that Kurdish is a different language, or that there are Kurds, they object to the idea that they are a different country - or should have one, since that would destroy Turkey - and any Kurdish state.

Pasha

I think in a lot of the schools with large numbers of various minority groups there is some aid for conversion to English at least. As well as the ability in many to learn languages other than English.

However the key point in Calgacus's question was the ‘permitted’. It may not be the case any longer but there used to be a lot of publicity about Kurds being denied the right to learn their language in school, or even Turkish officials denying the existence of the Kurds as a people.

Sounds from some of the comments like the situation is improving however.

Steve

 

[Calgacus]

Why? The Kurds already speak Kurdish. You seem to think it's a dying language or something.

Did you do English in school? Why bother with that? Also, mightn't it be good for non-Kurdish kids to learn a little as well?

 

[Keenir]

Also, mightn't it be good for non-Kurdish kids to learn a little as well?

yes, because Scottish kids can only learn English from their teachers.


of course, if you're now advocating sending all the non-Kurdish-speaking kids by bus to learn Kurdish -- why not bring the teachers to them??

 

[rad_vsovereign]

I have no idea why Kurdish language is a matter in the dispute between Turkey & PKK

I'm Indonesian & everybody in my country has to learn Indonesian, regardless of their ethnicities

If they want to learn their own language, they can-outside school. In fact every ethnic in their native province/region speak their language unless you talk to them in Indonesian-they'll switch to Indonesian when you do that

Since we have around 200+ languages & ethnics there's no way we can provide language courses for every ethnic/language. Without national language we can't communicate with each other

 

[Ridwan Asher]

I have no idea why Kurdish language is a matter in the dispute between Turkey & PKK

I'm Indonesian & everybody in my country has to learn Indonesian, regardless of their ethnicities

If they want to learn their own language, they can-outside school. In fact every ethnic in their native province/region speak their language unless you talk to them in Indonesian-they'll switch to Indonesian when you do that

Since we have around 200+ languages & ethnics there's no way we can provide language courses for every ethnic/language. Without national language we can't communicate with each other

wha'!!! T^T

Nice to see you my fellow Indonesian brother here !

Salam Sejahtera.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Did you do English in school? Why bother with that? Also, mightn't it be good for non-Kurdish kids to learn a little as well?

We're talking about people that mostly only attend primary school. As you have to learn English and in some cases French or German, adding another language might be a bit much. I doubt anyone would enroll in Kurdish classes. Private schools teaching Kurdish were opened when the laws were changed - they all shut down due to an almost total lack on interest.

Also, a third of Kurds are actually Zazas, which speak two dialects that are not mutually intelligible with Kurdish (about as similar as Romanian and Spanish).

Also, half of Kurds speak only Turkish - again, the lines between culture, identity, ethnicity, and language are very blurred in a place like Turkey and simple ideas aren't always easily practicable.

 

[Calgacus]

We're talking about people that mostly only attend primary school. As you have to learn English and in some cases French or German, adding another language might be a bit much. I doubt anyone would enroll in Kurdish classes. Private schools teaching Kurdish were opened when the laws were changed - they all shut down due to an almost total lack on interest.

Also, a third of Kurds are actually Zazas, which speak two dialects that are not mutually intelligible with Kurdish (about as similar as Romanian and Spanish).

Also, half of Kurds speak only Turkish - again, the lines between culture, identity, ethnicity, and language are very blurred in a place like Turkey and simple ideas aren't always easily practicable.

Well, maybe. I guess I view things through the prism of the UK, where language is a little more clear-cut. I just know that when a language is not dealt with in schools or where children are made to speak in the 'national language', minority languages can decline pretty fast. That was certainly the case with Welsh and Gaelic, and the problem is compounded when children leave the area to go to Uni or to work in the city. Maybe Kurdish is not in danger of that, but no-one would have thought Gaelic was not too long ago either.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Well, maybe. I guess I view things through the prism of the UK, where language is a little more clear-cut. I just know that when a language is not dealt with in schools or where children are made to speak in the 'national language', minority languages can decline pretty fast. That was certainly the case with Welsh and Gaelic, and the problem is compounded when children leave the area to go to Uni or to work in the city. Maybe Kurdish is not in danger of that, but no-one would have thought Gaelic was not too long ago either.

Well, Ethnologue lists 34 languages for Turkey, and I know that's wrong, because I've met speakers from at least two language communities that aren't listed there.

The problem is that most of these languages aren't literary - most don't have a literature at all, and few were committed to writing until a hundred years ago or so. Without a literature or grammars, it is difficult to develop a curriculum for school study. Few governments would invest in turning a predominantly oral language into a literary one (it requires an enormous effort and many expenses, in addition to a very specialized knowledge). Most of the languages in the UK have a literary history already and therefore make for easier study.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, but it will take a few generations even if we start now.

 

[Max Sinister]

Excuse me, Leo - how is a language community defined?

 

[Leo Caesius]

Excuse me, Leo - how is a language community defined?

Loosely defined, a language community is a linguistic and cultural entity that encompasses all native speakers of a given dialect or language as well as those who are culturally members of the community but who may not speak the language fluently or at all.

 

[Max Sinister]

I just wondered how many people do you need for it. If two Mandaeans emigrated to a small country - would do constitute a language community there?

So there are at least 36 l.c.s in Turkey. Not bad. Of course, one can imagine that somewhere in those mountains groups can survive without the world knowing about them.

 

[Leo Caesius]

I just wondered how many people do you need for it. If two Mandaeans emigrated to a small country - would do constitute a language community there?

They would presumably be in contact with their correligionists elsewhere, and would constitute a language community in a diaspora. Of course, there can be separate language communities within a single language - the Swiss German language community would be separate from that in Germany or Austria, due to social and cultural considerations.

A language community can be very small, but when it gets to a certain size it is usually considered to be moribund, and therefore the question of whether it constitutes a community or not will eventually resolve itself. Many of the ones in Turkey number in the few thousands of speakers, but a few have millions.

 

[Calgacus]

They would presumably be in contact with their correligionists elsewhere, and would constitute a language community in a diaspora. Of course, there can be separate language communities within a single language - the Swiss German language community would be separate from that in Germany or Austria, due to social and cultural considerations.

A language community can be very small, but when it gets to a certain size it is usually considered to be moribund, and therefore the question of whether it constitutes a community or not will eventually resolve itself. Many of the ones in Turkey number in the few thousands of speakers, but a few have millions.

What kind of numbers would you say a language has to get down to before it is in irreparable decline?

 

[rad_vsovereign]

wha'!!! T^T

Nice to see you my fellow Indonesian brother here !

Salam Sejahtera.

Hehehehe apa kabar?

nice to see you too here. wonder how many of us here??

 

[Nekromans]

Hehehehe apa kabar?

nice to see you too here. wonder how many of us here??

Everyone but me, apparently.

ENGLISHMAN: Stranded in Indonesia without a phrasebook! Luckily for me I took Javanese back in Oxbridge. I say, sir! Er, Googly woogly! Dum-diddy-bom-bom, toot sweet, savvy?