More powers and fronts in world war 2

Regarding Spain... anyone who's played the big WII war games (World in Flames, Totaler Krieg, The Struggle for Europe & Asia, Unconditional Surrender, etc.) can tell you that if you're the Axis player you REALLY don't want to roll Spain into the war. It adds a long coastline that needs to be - and can't be - defended. If you try to defend Spain it draws off troops that are needed in more important theaters. It makes an Allied invasion much easier, and then you have an area that can be directly reinforced.
 
You raise the arguments, so you need to justify and explain your arguments with sources, preferably academic and contemporary sources.

So far, you have cited no sources.

I don't feel obligated for that at all, not when nobody else hasn't done so either. Call it an educated guess. I have a pretty good idea about the validity of my arguments. if you wish to question them go ahead tell me which you like to disagree on and i'll provide you with sources.
 
Lithuania, perhaps? IIRC, the country was dangerously close to becoming a fascist dictatorship in the 30's. If it did become one, then i'd expect everything in WW2 to be quite different, especially the Molotov-Ribentropp Pact.
"dangerously" might be a bit of an overstatement, as the Iron Wolf did not have much popular support outside of the military and maybe a few nationalist organizations, but it was indeed a possibility.

I wrote about a fascist Lithuania in 1934 a few months ago, actually.
 
Pa
What it says on the tin. Brazil or Argentina joins the Axis. Soviets fight Japan in Siberia, Nazis make and invasion of Turkey, Nazis invade the Middle East, Japan has a successful pearl harbor (destroyed aircraft carriers and oil invasion of Hawaii) japan more successful in China, thailand joins the Axis, Spain joins the Axis, Portrugese are in the allies, more fighting in the middle east, greater Indian involvement, More successful Italy, More Latin American countries in the war. A Latin American front, and someone air strikes mainland USA.
Didn't Paragruay almost joined the Axis ?
 
Here are a few ideas. Many of these may be far-fetched, but I did try to have some ground in reality.

Europe
  • Spain joins the Axis Shortly after France falls, and taking advantage of the now direct line of communication to Germany and Italy, invade Portugal with relative ease.
  • Italy actually succeeds in taking southern France and Greece on its own. Even with heavy casualties.
  • Sweden remains neutral for most of the war like OTL. But in 1945. With the other allies closing in, Sweden declares war and attacks German bases in Denmark and Norway. Then rolls in to free the people.
  • Ireland reluctantly joins the allies. Sending some forces with Americans and English to liberate Portugal from Francoist rule.
Asia and the Pacific
  • Britain somehow succeeds in kicking Japan out of Singapore, mainly by calling in bombers from India. Then they roll further up west and meet up with liberators in Burma to attack Japan's bases in Thailand. As well as bombing raids on occupied territory in China and French Indochina.
  • Japan actually succeeds in nearly taking parts of Australia. But fail because of Australians being armed to the teeth and ready to kill any enemy they see.
  • While MacArthur is busy in the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand take the initiative and storms into the Dutch East Indies.
  • Several Commonwealth forces still in Singapore after kicking Japan out enter whatever Dutch East Indies areas Australia and New Zealand haven't gotten to, like Sumatra.
Latin America
  • Argentina declares support for the Axis, and forms an alliance with Peru. Both nations beginning to dramatically built up their armies.
  • Alarmed, the US decides to persuade Brazil in favor of a more democratic government in exchange for military supplies should Brazil invade.
  • Peru decides to try and rebuilt the Incan empire. After building up it resources with planes based on German and even some British designs, then it invades Ecuador and Columbia to the North.
  • Argentina invades Chile on its own. Followed by Paraguay. Then it takes the Falkland Islands.
  • Peru and Argentina invade Bolivia for its resources.
  • Peru invades Columbia and takes it over.
  • Brazil considers joining the Axis like the Soviets initially were, due to similar fascist government. But ultimately decide to join the allies. Thus incurring Argentina and Peru's combined wrath.
  • Following the US joining, Peru responds by bombing the Panama Canal.
  • Brazil is invaded to the west by Peru and the South by Argentina. however, the arrival of US troops soon turns the tide for Brazil.
  • Mexico joins the war on the side of the US and Brazil, and the US and Mexico begin a series of plans to first get central American nations on their side. Then launch a full scale counter-invasion of Peru.
  • Meanwhile, US and even a few Commonwealth troops join Brazil in liberating Paraguay, Bolivia, and Columbia.
Africa
  • In South Africa, Afrikaners proceed to try and form their own Boer Republics. Which then attempt to attack the UK. With support from the colonies of Occupied Portugal and Belgium.
  • Using Ethiopia as a base, Italy invades Anglo- Egyptian Sudan. But not before trying to bomb and invade British territories.
  • Free French and British troops attempt to liberate French West Africa, and are somewhat successful, though only.
  • Francoist Spain tries to annex French colonies in North Africa.
 
It was pretty stupid for Hitler to send troops to north Africa in OTL.

That's debatable, if the Afrika Korps hadn't been sent to shore up Mussolini then Libya is likely liberated in 1941, leaving the south of France and Italy exposed and making it necessary to increase the German presence in those areas in case of an Allied invasion. Arguably this was preferable to sending troops to fight an unwinnable battle in North Africa but it wasn't "pretty stupid" to decide otherwise, either strategy had its risks and rewards.
 
Here are a few ideas. Many of these may be far-fetched, but I did try to have some ground in reality.

Europe
  • Spain joins the Axis Shortly after France falls, and taking advantage of the now direct line of communication to Germany and Italy, invade Portugal with relative ease.
  • Italy actually succeeds in taking southern France and Greece on its own. Even with heavy casualties.
  • Sweden remains neutral for most of the war like OTL. But in 1945. With the other allies closing in, Sweden declares war and attacks German bases in Denmark and Norway. Then rolls in to free the people.
  • Ireland reluctantly joins the allies. Sending some forces with Americans and English to liberate Portugal from Francoist rule.
Asia and the Pacific
  • Britain somehow succeeds in kicking Japan out of Singapore, mainly by calling in bombers from India. Then they roll further up west and meet up with liberators in Burma to attack Japan's bases in Thailand. As well as bombing raids on occupied territory in China and French Indochina.
  • Japan actually succeeds in nearly taking parts of Australia. But fail because of Australians being armed to the teeth and ready to kill any enemy they see.
  • While MacArthur is busy in the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand take the initiative and storms into the Dutch East Indies.
  • Several Commonwealth forces still in Singapore after kicking Japan out enter whatever Dutch East Indies areas Australia and New Zealand haven't gotten to, like Sumatra.
Latin America
  • Argentina declares support for the Axis, and forms an alliance with Peru. Both nations beginning to dramatically built up their armies.
  • Alarmed, the US decides to persuade Brazil in favor of a more democratic government in exchange for military supplies should Brazil invade.
  • Peru decides to try and rebuilt the Incan empire. After building up it resources with planes based on German and even some British designs, then it invades Ecuador and Columbia to the North.
  • Argentina invades Chile on its own. Followed by Paraguay. Then it takes the Falkland Islands.
  • Peru and Argentina invade Bolivia for its resources.
  • Peru invades Columbia and takes it over.
  • Brazil considers joining the Axis like the Soviets initially were, due to similar fascist government. But ultimately decide to join the allies. Thus incurring Argentina and Peru's combined wrath.
  • Following the US joining, Peru responds by bombing the Panama Canal.
  • Brazil is invaded to the west by Peru and the South by Argentina. however, the arrival of US troops soon turns the tide for Brazil.
  • Mexico joins the war on the side of the US and Brazil, and the US and Mexico begin a series of plans to first get central American nations on their side. Then launch a full scale counter-invasion of Peru.
  • Meanwhile, US and even a few Commonwealth troops join Brazil in liberating Paraguay, Bolivia, and Columbia.
Africa
  • In South Africa, Afrikaners proceed to try and form their own Boer Republics. Which then attempt to attack the UK. With support from the colonies of Occupied Portugal and Belgium.
  • Using Ethiopia as a base, Italy invades Anglo- Egyptian Sudan. But not before trying to bomb and invade British territories.
  • Free French and British troops attempt to liberate French West Africa, and are somewhat successful, though only.
  • Francoist Spain tries to annex French colonies in North Africa.

and a patridge in a pear tree.

Seriously, like said before, other fronts can be opened up, but they would have to be the dumbest decisions in the history of humanity. The only one plausible is UK defeating the Japanese in Singapore/Malaya. But that doesn't even open a new front, unless they are able to invade Indochina. Same goes for Italy being more successfull. Nor Ireland joining, as they won't be making new fronts, just joining existing ones.

Just for the kick i can imagine Finland getting their ass kicked way harder in the continuation war and actually collapsing under the Soviets and being forced to set up a Socialist puppet state and then attack Germans all the way into Norway. Thats another front, you know, if they are going into Norway(probably not).
 
With Hawaii you put a cork in the USN central Pacific drive.
With Hawaii Japan throws away a bunch of destroyers, probably some of their larger ships, and tens of thousands of men on a fool's errand. There were 45,000 American troops in Hawaii, and they were in prepared positions with no possibility of outmaneuver by the Japanese. It would be less wasteful for the Japanese to take fifty thousand of their soldiers out and shoot them.
 
and a patridge in a pear tree.

Seriously, like said before, other fronts can be opened up, but they would have to be the dumbest decisions in the history of humanity. The only one plausible is UK defeating the Japanese in Singapore/Malaya. But that doesn't even open a new front, unless they are able to invade Indochina. Same goes for Italy being more successfull. Nor Ireland joining, as they won't be making new fronts, just joining existing ones.

I actually did think of them at least getting into the south of Thailand in invasion. Plus maybe parts of modern Cambodia.
 
With Hawaii Japan throws away a bunch of destroyers, probably some of their larger ships, and tens of thousands of men on a fool's errand. There were 45,000 American troops in Hawaii, and they were in prepared positions with no possibility of outmaneuver by the Japanese. It would be less wasteful for the Japanese to take fifty thousand of their soldiers out and shoot them.
The US Army disagreed with you. The key to holding Hawaii was the US Navy.
 
The US Army disagreed with you. The key to holding Hawaii was the US Navy.
Those who lived at the time are not the final arbiters in what is and is not possible.

The US Army didn't know how much of a shoestring the Kido Butai operated under for instance. Views of the time must be balanced against data we have now. And the data says an invasion of Hawaii wasn't possible.
 
Fine whatever. I’ve learnt enough around here that’s there is not much point in a discussion.
Uh huh. You want to present evidence and an argument be my guest. Don't passive aggressively claim the reason is because "there's not much point in a discussion."
 

Ian_W

Banned
Fine whatever. I’ve learnt enough around here that’s there is not much point in a discussion.

It really helps if you show you've put some effort into thinking about the logistics and the 'how'.

Anyone can say 'But Spain could join the Axis !'. A better thread would show 'Spain joins the Axis, and *this* is how they get fed once their grain imports get cut off'.
 
Uh huh. You want to present evidence and an argument be my guest. Don't passive aggressively claim the reason is because "there's not much point in a discussion."

It really helps if you show you've put some effort into thinking about the logistics and the 'how'.

Anyone can say 'But Spain could join the Axis !'. A better thread would show 'Spain joins the Axis, and *this* is how they get fed once their grain imports get cut off'.

LOL It's 'Pacific Sealion' territory so I'm not bothering. I was paying the courtesy of replying to a quote from a post I'd put a couple of months ago.
 
Thailand was in the axis?

Thailand wanted to be neutral, but Japan ended that. Actually, when Japan attacked Malaya, they began with landings in Thailand to the north, and Thai troops resisted the Japanese for a few hours, inflicting several hundred casualties. They were ordered to lay down arms by their government, after which Thailand "joined" the war. However, the only other armed action by Thai forces during the war was an attempt to seize part of French Indochina - even though France had made peace with the Axis. (Indochina was loyal to the Vichy government.)

In the Franco-Thai War (January 1941), Thai forces invaded Cambodia and Laos with success, but the Vichy French naval force in Indochina attacked the Thai navy and won a major victory at Ko-Chang. Japan then intervened and imposed mediation. France ceded four border provinces to Thailand.

Later, as noted, Thailand briefly resisted Japanese incursions, then generally cooperated with Japan. However, I have read that Allied representatives openly moved in Bangkok all through the war.
 
Maybe a more successful Iraq in the Angol-Iraq War or the US could invade Brazil to seize their ports for strategic reasons. What if Norway and Sweden let the Allies move through their territory to help Finland during the Winter War leading them to seizing Sweeden's mines? That could lead to a lot more fighting in Scandinavia and direct conflict between the Allies and the Soviets. Would the allies invade Thailand if there was quicker success on the Burma Front? None of these scenarios are that realistic though.
 

Zachariah

Banned
How about having WW2 be more of a three-way conflict between the Allies, Axis and Soviets, with the Communist University of the Toilers of the East kept running by the Comintern Politburo instead of being shut down in the late 1930s, and its agents subsequently leading opportunistic communist uprisings across the globe to open up those fronts during WW2 ITTL, instead in the aftermath of it, or not at all as IOTL? Ho Chi Minh (Vietnam), Tan Malaka (Indonesia), Muhammad Najati Sidqi (Palestine), Sbulawelani Shwala (South Africa), Yusuf 'Fahd' Salman Yusuf (Iraq), Manabendra Nath Roy (Mexico &/or India), Nikos Zachariadis (Greece), George Padmore (Barbados & British West Indies/ Gold Coast), Jomo Kenyatta (Kenya & British East Africa), C.L.R. James (Trinidad & West Indies), I.T.A. Wallace-Johnson (Sierra Leone & British West Africa)- these are all distinct possibilities, and said Civil Wars would constitute fronts in WW2, and bring more powers into the wider global conflict.
 
Could the Japanese have opened more fronts in Asia if they avoided the army vacuum of China? Perhaps they could instead stick with Manchuria and tried to support the nationalist against the communist or supported some powerful warlord to keep China disunited?
 
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