More navies with E-1B Tracer

Archibald

Banned
(inspired by Riain AEW Constellation thread)
Also known as Stoof with a roof, the Tracer was the Tracker AEW variant. Unlike the Hawkeye the Tracker was able to land on pretty small carriers. Argentina navy Trackers already landed on the Brazilian carrier, former Foch.
French navy sounds like an obvious customer (along with Mirage F1 for air defence, licence-build A-7E for strike, and Breguet 941 for COD)
Argentina navy ? Royal Navy ?

Turboprops sounds like a likely upgrade (would result in a TurboTracer - E-1C)

I can't find much information on the Tracer. What were the machine biggest flaws ?
 

Just Leo

You might find more information about the E-1B by googling Willy Fudd. They were lucky to be around still, while the Hawkeye was being de-bugged. Simple, reliable, but a tad noisy.
 

Peg Leg Pom

Britain wouldn't need it. In any situation when Britain keeps conventional aircraft carriers we'd use the Gannet A.E.W. The planned but canceled A.E.W. 7 would do the job perfectly well.

I could see the M.O.D. buying surplus Tracers as an alternative to the Shackelton A.E.W as they weren't really up to the job. If they did they would be converted to turbo props and their radar might possibly be updated.
 
JudgeKing

JudgeKing

Peg Leg Pom said:
Britain wouldn't need it. In any situation when Britain keeps conventional aircraft carriers we'd use the Gannet A.E.W. The planned but canceled A.E.W. 7 would do the job perfectly well.

I could see the M.O.D. buying surplus Tracers as an alternative to the Shackelton A.E.W as they weren't really up to the job. If they did they would be converted to turbo props and their radar might possibly be updated.
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Actually, Britain would've likeley replaced the Gannet AEW with the Hawker Siddeley P.139B.
 

Just Leo

I must have caught cut and paste disease from my second wife, old what's'erface. Here's a Tracer with GE T-64 turbo-prop, lighter, more power, good fuel consumption.

While reading up on the Napier Nomad engine a while ago, I noticed that they mentioned that the heads on the Griffon engines powering the Shackletons required rebuilding every 50 hours. That seems harsh on a 4-engined patrol aircraft, and a good reason not to cancel the Nomad just as it was turning the corner. Spend millions and then cancel to save 50p.

And weren't the electronics in that Hawker-Siddeley from another famous cancellation which shared its uglitude?

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Riain

I think the only candidates for the E1 would be the French, a Britain which keeps the Eagle and Ark Royal well into the 80s and perhaps a country which buys HMS Hermes or Centaur as a conventional carrier in the 60s/70s.

If Britain builds the CVA 01 then I think the Hawkeye would be much better. All other carriers are too small to warrant an AEW flight.
 

Archibald

Banned
I can't help thinking, would Argentina 25 de Mayo have any use of E-1B ? could it handle these planes ?
 

andys

Not just navies.

Greece, Turkey, South Korea and Israel could all have been potential customers for a land based Tracer, especially with new engines and upgraded radar.
 

Riain

The thing about force multipliers is that you must have a force to multiply. If you put a flight of 3 Tracers on board a Majestic class carrier it would be at the expense of some of the 8 Skyhawks, 6 Trackers and 6 helicopters these ship carry. However these are probably the minimum aircraft numbers need to conduct missions so cant be cut down.

Centaur and Hermes are bigger and have room to squeeze an AEW flight into their CAG as well as more attack and ASW aircraft.
 

jlckansas

One thing to remember is that carrier based aircraft are built more heavily then a land based plane to take the stresses of catapult launches and arrested landings. So taking a E1 airframe that is not used on a carrier and just on land based units would be able to last for a longer time. Upgrades anyone?
 

Riain

Naval AEW is very limited in capability due to carrier space constraints, they only have 2 radar consoles for onboard tracking and direction, a lot of data is streamed to the controlling ships and the ops room onboard directs much of the action. If you are going to use land based AEW a bigger plane with more consoles, operators, communications, other sensors, endurance and performance is much handier. The USN retired most of the E1 fleet by 1973 so there are 70+ AN/APS82 search radar and equipment sets in storage which could be plugged into something bigger for land use.
 

Russell

Riain said:
Naval AEW is very limited in capability due to carrier space constraints, they only have 2 radar consoles for onboard tracking and direction, a lot of data is streamed to the controlling ships and the ops room onboard directs much of the action. If you are going to use land based AEW a bigger plane with more consoles, operators, communications, other sensors, endurance and performance is much handier. The USN retired most of the E1 fleet by 1973 so there are 70+ AN/APS82 search radar and equipment sets in storage which could be plugged into something bigger for land use.
Click to expand...

What about mounting them on P-3 Orion fuselgages (albeit without the ASW gear. It would at the vest least allow for a bigger production run of P-3's, as well as provide effective but cheap AEW for US allies.

Russell
 

andys

Riain said:
Naval AEW is very limited in capability due to carrier space constraints, they only have 2 radar consoles for onboard tracking and direction, a lot of data is streamed to the controlling ships and the ops room onboard directs much of the action. If you are going to use land based AEW a bigger plane with more consoles, operators, communications, other sensors, endurance and performance is much handier. The USN retired most of the E1 fleet by 1973 so there are 70+ AN/APS82 search radar and equipment sets in storage which could be plugged into something bigger for land use.
Click to expand...
Something bigger for land use you say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-2_Neptune#cite_note-AIfeb95_p80-1-43

Note that it used the AN/APS-20 already, just like the AEW Shackleton.

Replace the piston engines with T-56s, T-64s, Tynes or Dart 10s from the Andover, new radar, more operator consoles, job done?

Retired in the late 60s, early 70s, so presumably lots stored at Davis Monthan available for repurposing as the E1s went out of service?
 
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Riain

I wouldn't be putting second-hand AEW gear into brand new airframes. If you are going to use new P3s for AEW in the early 70s you'd use the Hawkeye's AN/APS 96 radar. However given the slowness of take-up of AEW IOTL (1946 USN, 1951 RN-FAA, 1954 USAF, 1965 Soviets, 1972 RAF) a P3 AEW won't enter service before the 80s if it ever happens. This is why I suggested pushing ex Barrier Patrol EC121Ks out to US Allies after 1965 in the other thread. I think that once countries see the value of AEW by operating EC121s in the 60s and 70s projects like the P3 AEW will get support.

The Neptune could be used for AEW I think but would probably have similar limitations as carrier AEW unless big money was spent putting in more consoles and the like. Even then it wouldn't have the height finding radar that the EC 121 had.
 
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