More inclusive German nationalism in the 19th century?

[Mario]

Could it have been possible that the inception of the German nationalism at the early 19th century would have been more inclusive and accepted 'partner nations' like Dutch, the Swiss, northern Italians, Hungarians, Poles or the Baltic peoples to be part of their idea of German Homeland?

Thus the formation of a greater Germany based on the Austrian Empire would have been more feasible.

 

[Deleted member 90949]

There were people who wanted the Zollverein, an organization that laid the foundation for German unification, to be open to non-German states. Perhaps you could start with a more inclusive Zollverein.

 

[ennobee]

In theory I could, but you might have to massively wank the history of the countries considered, at least over a hundred years for them to actually WANT to be part of a Unified Germany. Most of them (The Netherlands, Zwitserland) were quite happy there way they were and used the German petty states as an example of how NOT to do things and WHY their way was far far better. The other regions (Flanders, Transylvania, Trieste) were already part of another empire and/or geographically isolated so you had to integrate the states in-between first. This is not the EU we are talking about here. This is a monoculture German society.

 

[DUWANG]

Could it have been possible that the inception of the German nationalism at the early 19th century would have been more inclusive and accepted 'partner nations' like Dutch, the Swiss, northern Italians, Hungarians, Poles or the Baltic peoples to be part of their idea of German Homeland?

Thus the formation of a greater Germany based on the Austrian Empire would have been more feasible.

Well, there was the Alldutch movement during the middle 19th and early 20th century which saw to unite all of the Dutch/Flemish, Frisian and Low German speaking parts of Europe "From Dunkirk till Königsberg". In fact there was a very small Low German "nationalism" in West Germany which died out after reunification. You could make the Netherlands more influential in Germany, or strengthen the Alldutch movement, two ways to achive this is Prussia and allies either loosing the German Brothers war or the Franco-Prussian war. You could also make Bismarck more Prussia centered instead of German centered, making him stop at the North German Federation. If the Alldutch movement succeded, it would look something like this

For Austria I could imagine a working United States of Austria, for Baden and Württemberg I could imagine these two becoming more like Switzerland, maybe building a Allemanic Confederation with Switzerland and Liechtenstein. For the rest, Idk.

 

[Gloss]

After the reformation and after so many centuries of separate political life it would have been basically impossible.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Could it have been possible that the inception of the German nationalism at the early 19th century would have been more inclusive and accepted 'partner nations' like Dutch, the Swiss, northern Italians, Hungarians, Poles or the Baltic peoples to be part of their idea of German Homeland?

Thus the formation of a greater Germany based on the Austrian Empire would have been more feasible.

If you’re gonna include Northern Italy with a Greater Germany you might as well call it is: the Holy Roman Empire (Hellieges Romische Reich/Sacrum Imperium Romanum). In otl as Austria was emerging with its influence and control over the other states Prussia emerged as its main rival thwarting its ambitions by taking Silesia and large chunks of Saxony which gave it resources to compete against Austria. For a good pod for something like this you might as well have Austria crush Prussia early on thus maintaining Austria's position as the primary hegemon and defacto-leader of the German states. This Austria without any rivals would likely win the War of Bavarian succession which gains it control of more electoral seats. This Greater Germany without impediment from Prussia reforms into a sort of federal Holy Roman Empire likely with the German state-lets and microstates mediatized into separate Kingdoms or Grand Duchys like Lotharingia or even Burgundy/Arles. This would require a pod where Austria can knock out France as its desire for the Rhineland and Alpine territories will draw it into conflict with a revived HRE. And France certainly wouldn't want a strong centralized state on its Alpine and Northern border.

Hungary will most likely be kept as a separate Kingdom in a personal union with the Habsburg Emperor since they were legally never a part of the HRE and always separately administered from the Empire's possessions within Germany. Plus the Hungarian nobility was the ones who funded the 1848 Revolutions against the Austrians so keeping them happy or breaking them via a military victory and redistributing their lands among the peasantry is crucial to Austrian dominion.

Switzerland has a bad history with Austria going back to Emperor Maximilian I. That's how the Habsburgs lost their ancestral lands (they originate as Swiss Counts in Aargau). Though a revived HRE might be able to coerce them if the Empire can integrate Northern Italy and the rest of Germany while knocking down France. Poland could likely be restored as a separate Kingdom under Habsburg rule or perhaps joint control with the Romanovs as a buffer state between them. I can imagine with Austria's hands full with Germany and Northern Italy, they might be more open to a more equitable compromise with Russia over the Balkans. Either way this is a pretty large France Screw and requires a very military capable and effective administration for the Empire something the Austrians were kinda lacking. This requires the Austrians having a couple generations of extremely competent leadership which while difficult to maintain, is not impossible. This was what Prussia had with how it essentially built itself from a backwater in the fringes of the HRE to the powerful nation that created the German Empire. Reversing Austrian and Prussian fortunes would do a lot to help the Empire. Maybe someone like Archduke Charles being the Kaiser than the Reactionary Francis II and I would be a good pod. Francis was suspect of the enlightenment and the Austrian administration under him floundered and his stubbornness led to a failure to reform. Archduke Charles was a very talented military leader who faced off against Napoleon and nearly defeated him at Wagram. Had a few things gone right, its likely that Austria might have defeated him earlier.

 

[snerfuplz]

One problem was that these nationalities were also developing their own brand of nationalism. The German nationalists had originally wanted Bohemia (Czechia) as part of the eventual German nation but the Czech did not see themselves as German

 

[Drizzt]

This is a monoculture German society.

Even present day Germany is hardly monocultural regarding it's states. Calling pre-1871 Germany monocultural just because everyone there is German, is like calling India monocultural.