More fair post-1848

abc123

Banned
Because Fiume was not part of Croatia in 1848.

True. It was Corpus separatum- under joint Hungaria-Croatian government. And it was definitly claimed by Croats, Jelačić was even named as Governor of Rijeka too, so if he will remain ban after 1848 ( and it will as OTL ), than there's only one normal thing, incorporate Rijeka back to Croatia, because if anything, there's no more Archiregnum Hungaricum or it's Government, now we have totally new situation...
 
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I assume Rijeka as part of Croatia is logical - will the Croats give it the importance the Hungarians gave it asmain harbor for the Hungarian half of A-H - now that there is NO Hungarian half, will Tirest be that larger - or will Rijeka take Polas place as main naval base?

As you joined Dalmatia and Croatia I assume Croatia will be the dominating "South-Slav" entity and if the History progresses like OTL it even might absorb Bosnia and Hercegovina when the OE loses it.

To make a different TL a 1878 analouge war might see the Habsburgs side with Russia and get more Balkan territory - with Russia and Habsburg "allied" against the OE even Prussia + England + France might not prevent the OE being pushed from Europe earlier.
 

abc123

Banned
I assume Rijeka as part of Croatia is logical - will the Croats give it the importance the Hungarians gave it asmain harbor for the Hungarian half of A-H - now that there is NO Hungarian half, will Tirest be that larger - or will Rijeka take Polas place as main naval base?

As you joined Dalmatia and Croatia I assume Croatia will be the dominating "South-Slav" entity and if the History progresses like OTL it even might absorb Bosnia and Hercegovina when the OE loses it.

To make a different TL a 1878 analouge war might see the Habsburgs side with Russia and get more Balkan territory - with Russia and Habsburg "allied" against the OE even Prussia + England + France might not prevent the OE being pushed from Europe earlier.

Indeed, Croatia allways claimed rights on Bosnia and Herzegovina, so if Habsburg wan't to please Croats they would give at least a part of B-H to Croatia.

About the Ottomans, much it will depend on relations between Serbia and Austria, if good, Austrians might favour dismemberment of Ottoman holdings in Europe, if bad, than Ottoman survival.

About importance of Rijeka, I don't know. Existing port tradition is certainly in favour of it, on the other hand, there was no railways as of yet, so I would presume that Croats would want railway connection with Dalmatia more than with Rijeka...
 
IIRC both Trieste (around 4,5 Mill ton per year) and Rijeka (around 2,1 million ton) were among the 10 biggest trade harbours in Europe in the 19th century. A rail line between both cities should be priority. IIRC Trieste was the dominating harbour for the Mediterranean. Thanks to Suez ;) - for Comparison Hamburgs harbor had 6,5 Mill. tons

Trieste was connected to Vienna by rail in 1857 (Südbahn) - the extension to Rijeka is only a comparable minor project.

Teh question is - OTL Rijeka was expanded because Huingary wanted its OWN harbour,, with no Hungary it could be that Trieste takes over as sole Austrian Harbour and Rijeka stays a quiet town. - Or the Croats jump in for the Hungarians and Rijeka grows as OTL (it could go either wway, but strategically two harbours can handle more trade than one)

THe main navy base - Pola/Pula is situated just between both narbors and can cover both - and in addition the trade harbors might also service the Imperial navy ;) And a rail line should link Pola to Trieste too.
 
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abc123

Banned
IIRC both Trieste (around 4,5 Mill ton per year) and Rijeka (around 2,1 million ton) were among the 10 biggest trade harbours in Europe in the 19th century. A rail line between both cities should be priority. IIRC Trieste was the dominating harbour for the Mediterranean. Thanks to Suez ;) - for Comparison Hamburgs harbor had 6,5 Mill. tons

Trieste was connected to Vienna by rail in 1857 (Südbahn) - the extension to Rijeka is only a comparable minor project.

Teh question is - OTL Rijeka was expanded because Huingary wanted its OWN harbour,, with no Hungary it could be that Trieste takes over as sole Austrian Harbour and Rijeka stays a quiet town. - Or the Croats jump in for the Hungarians and Rijeka grows as OTL (it could go either wway, but strategically two harbours can handle more trade than one)

THe main navy base - Pola/Pula is situated just between both narbors and can cover both - and in addition the trade harbors might also service the Imperial navy ;) And a rail line should link Pola to Trieste too.

It seems that I read somewhere that Rijeka was 4th harbour in Europe in 1918, but I'm not sure...

But, yes, I think that, with no large Hungary, Rijeka will still be 2nd port in Austria ( close to Pannonian Plain, Dinarides much narrower than elsewhere, long tradition as port ), maybe not 2,1 mil. t. as OTL, but important port definitly.

As I said, the crucial question will be who will control the railway construction ITTL, if it's Vienna, than I would think that they could build railway from Trieste to Rijeka ( but OTOH, railway from say Zagreb to Rijeka could have more sence because of railway capacity, Southern Railway could be too small for all the traffic ), better to have two lines, but I concede that railway line from Zagreb is much more expencive.

If individual lands ( Zagreb ) than we could also expect railway to Rijeka, but it will have a big competition in railway from Zagreb to Dalmatia ( political project par excellence, to connect Croatian lands ).
 
I did check a bit -

THe railline from Vienna to trieste split at Piva and had a 56 km sideline to Rijeka. (1873)

From Zidani most there was a line to Zagreb since 1862

From 1865 a line ran from Zagreb to Karlovac. This latter line was (by Hungary) extended to Rijeka in 1873.
 

abc123

Banned
I did check a bit -

THe railline from Vienna to trieste split at Piva and had a 56 km sideline to Rijeka. (1873)

From Zidani most there was a line to Zagreb since 1862

From 1865 a line ran from Zagreb to Karlovac. This latter line was (by Hungary) extended to Rijeka in 1873.

Yes, I know that, but since Hungary will not decide about railway construction ITTL, that still leaves us with the same problem...
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
About Rijeka- certainly.

Principality of Upper Hungary, I had that idea myself, but someone noted that if the goal is to punish Hungary, than better not to give Slovakia such name...

And yes, Hungarians will be thoroughly pissed and wrecked...

Austrians: I got it! We'll call it the principality of Good Hungary!

Hungarians: But wouldn't that imply that we're "Bad" Hungary?

Austrians: Shut up, Bad Hungary!
 
Wouldn`t simple logic dictate that Croatia would get Rijeka?

Look here:

535px-Jela%C4%8Di%C4%87eva_Hrvatska.gif


These were the lands Jelačić ruled, and they were basically everything (except for IIRC Opatija) that was considered as "natural Croatian borders" at the time. Not counting the guys that wanted the whole of Bosnia, ofc.
 

abc123

Banned
Wouldn`t simple logic dictate that Croatia would get Rijeka?

Look here:

535px-Jela%C4%8Di%C4%87eva_Hrvatska.gif


These were the lands Jelačić ruled, and they were basically everything (except for IIRC Opatija) that was considered as "minimal Croatian borders" at the time. Not counting the guys that wanted the whole of Bosnia, ofc.

Post corrected.

Normal borders would be that plus Turska Hrvatska, and maximal plus whole Bosnia-Herzegovina and Istra.
;)
 
Post corrected.

Normal borders would be that plus Turska Hrvatska, and maximal plus whole Bosnia-Herzegovina and Istra.
;)

Turska Hrvatska (and the rest of BiH) was in the Ottoman Empire at the time, as I am certain you know, so that`s a non-starter.

And Istra? This is the max I ever found was "the goal".

Velika Hrvatska.jpg
 

abc123

Banned
Turska Hrvatska (and the rest of BiH) was in the Ottoman Empire at the time, as I am certain you know, so that`s a non-starter.

And Istra? This is the max I ever found was "the goal".

I was talking about long term goals, and considering that the sick-man of Europe had serious problems with holding Bosnia-Hercegovina, definitly not non-starter...

About Istra, try to read any official Croat national program from the time period ( like Zahtjevanja naroda in 1848 or Disertatia in 1830 ) and you will see that Istra is nothing special, Carniola and Gorizia are there too...

And that book of Lorković ( I have her too ), that's something completely different, you have to understand when it was written, by who and why that map looks like that.
;)

And the "guys who wanted whole Bosnia" were basicly all Croats and Croatian Parliaments since 16-th Century on including Croatian Parliament in 1878, Stjepan Radić ( you can't say that he was radical nationalist... ), Vlatko Maček etc.
 
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I was talking about long term goals, and considering that the sick-man of Europe had serious problems with holding Bosnia-Hercegovina, definitly not non-starter...

Since the time period we are dicussing here is the immediate aftermath of 1848., BiH won`t be in the cards for at least another 30 years. Long-term, yes, Bosnia is very much viable, if you discount the butterflies that might come out of this change. Short-term, a non-starter. ;)

About Istra, try to read any official Croat national program from the time period ( like Zahtjevanja naroda in 1848 or Disertatia in 1830 ) and you will see that Istra is nothing special, Carniola and Gorizia are there too...

The thing about Istra is that it was Österreichisches Küstenland. I don`t find it likely that the Austrians would give it up, even ITTL.

And the "guys who wanted whole Bosnia" were basicly all Croats and Croatian Parliaments since 16-th Century on including Croatian Parliament in 1878, Stjepan Radić ( you can't say that he was radical nationalist... ), Vlatko Maček etc.

I expressed myself poorly here. You are right, Bosnia was an honest wish for basically everyone, but the expression "natural" about Jelačić`s "realm" was one I saw used quite a few times to describe it. That doesn`t mean nobody wanted more.

Ak je dugo tvrdo spala, jača hoće bit,
ak je sada u snu mala, će se prostranit. ;)
 

abc123

Banned
OK, I understand now what you wan't to say. ;)
Naturally, if BiH is under Ottoman rule in 1850s, such aspirations are for future only, not for immediate use...

About Istra: I don't think it either, but that did not prevent us from laying claim on Istra. Will we get it is something completely different.

About natural borders, I agree that such borders are natural if we take what is realisticly possible at the time ( within borders of Habsburg Monarchy ).

Great quote.;)
 
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