More extensive Crimean war?

Here's an idea for a timeline I have.

What if Nikolai I had not died and continued to oppose peace and Sweden and Austria had entered the war?

The French wanted to re-establish a Polish state out of Russia, Sweden wants Åland and perhaps also Finland, the Brits want the Russians out of "the Great Game" and not touching the Ottoman Empire, the Sardinia-Piedimontes wanted French support for their policies in Italy and will most likely align with any French wish to gain said support.

So, Nikolai refuses peace after the fall of Sebastopol and Austria and Sweden marches. Sweden has a substantial navy and is supported by French and British units in the Baltic. The French and British have already destroyed Bomarsund's Fortress in Åland. Swedish troops easily ockupy the islands, enthusiastically greeted by the locals (who are Swedish-speaking). Same thing when they land at Uleåborg and march south. Combined Swedish-French-British naval forces threaten Schlüsselburg (and in the extent, Saint Petersburg) and land forces to lay siege to Viborg, cutting off the meager Russian garrison in Finland.

The Austrians make good progress into Russian Poland, while the British are expanding into Georgia and laying siege to Odessa. Nikolai dies and his sone quickly brokers for peace.

Åland, Finland and Kexholm goes to Sweden - they are poor regions anyway, and since Russofication has not started, they still have Swedish laws and a large percentage speak Swedish.

The Kingdom of Poland is re-established. It is not very big, more like the Duchy of Warsaw before the last Polish partioning, but it gives Austria a desired buffer between themselves and Russia, and the French a loyal ally against possible Prussian expansion. A Habsburg is elected King to ensure Austrian cooperation in the scheme - they are worried about their own Poles in Galizia and their reaction to a Polish state (the 1848 revolts are not far away), but agree with a Habsburg ruler.

Britain is satisfied with the limitation on Russian expansion in Asia the treaty contains. The Russians are ousted from Persia and not allowed into Afghanistan anymore, both are considered British sphere of influence. The British are not too happy with increased French influence on the continent, but they are also worried about the increased Prussian influence and possible designs on Hannover, so they allow it.

So, what are the changes of this timeline?

Sweden is stronger with Finland. What will this mean for the Pan-Scandinavist movement, especially as Sweden is seen as a state with a successful army? Will Sweden lend more support to Denmark during the two Schleswig wars, and will Austria and Prussia be more likely to back down because of it? Austria might have friendly relations to Sweden since fighting on the same side in the Crimean War and the issues can perhaps be resolved diplomatically? If Sweden and Denmark joins in a Scandinavian state, will the Norweigans be as inclined to form their own state?

I can see Bismarck playing the revanschist feelings in Russia when the time comes to confront France. A Russo-Prussian alliance allows the Russians to swallow the Kingdom of Poland a mere 15 years after its forming - France, Austria and Poland on the same side loses the war and Germany forms. Bismarck still wants Austria on his side and extracts no indemnities or territory from the Austrians after the war, as in OTL. However, the Poles will likely see the Austrians in a better light after they fought for the Kingdom of Poland. Many Poles likely flee to Galizia - when the Polish Legion is formed later, it is going to be stronger, have a better moral fibre and a lot more recruits, and be seen as less of a threat by the Austrians.

How will ww1 look in this case? Can Bismarck maintain the Drekaiserbund despite even harder Russo-Austrian frictions? Scandinavia will likely be in tensions both with Russia, which has a Swedish-speaking minority in Estonia and over Finland, and with Germany over Schleswig. If the Norweigans stay in Scandinavia and these tensions remain, Scandinavia might align more with Britain and perhaps also a bit with France (historically, the alignment was more towards Britain by Norway, while Sweden and Denmark were more aligned towards Germany).

Will Wilhelm II alienate Russia and perhaps Scandinavia?
 
I did one of these once, though my memory fails me really

As I recall, the biggest problem is that the aims of some of the 'allies' in this 'Everyone Hates Russia' war conflict. Whilst Napoleon III wants an independent Poland, and Austria MIGHT not mind one, I rather doubt Prussia wants to see one right on its doorstep.

You've also got financial aspects to consider - Britain was basically going to have to pay for Sweden to go to war, IIRC Spain offered participation like with Sardinia but again Britain was going to have to pay for it and declined the offer

Public reaction to landings in Circassia (the plan for the following year had the war continued) might not have been very positive - why shed good British blood to deliver a load of mountain-dwelling Muslim tribesmen to the Ottomans, might have summed it up

There's also the Far East to consider - quite a widespread little naval war was going on over there... I might be able to find a link to my old website on that...let's see

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/ince/698/rurik/krim.html

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Rockingham

Banned
Here's an idea for a timeline I have.

What if Nikolai I had not died and continued to oppose peace and Sweden and Austria had entered the war?

The French wanted to re-establish a Polish state out of Russia, Sweden wants Åland and perhaps also Finland, the Brits want the Russians out of "the Great Game" and not touching the Ottoman Empire, the Sardinia-Piedimontes wanted French support for their policies in Italy and will most likely align with any French wish to gain said support.

So, Nikolai refuses peace after the fall of Sebastopol and Austria and Sweden marches. Sweden has a substantial navy and is supported by French and British units in the Baltic. The French and British have already destroyed Bomarsund's Fortress in Åland. Swedish troops easily ockupy the islands, enthusiastically greeted by the locals (who are Swedish-speaking). Same thing when they land at Uleåborg and march south. Combined Swedish-French-British naval forces threaten Schlüsselburg (and in the extent, Saint Petersburg) and land forces to lay siege to Viborg, cutting off the meager Russian garrison in Finland.

The Austrians make good progress into Russian Poland, while the British are expanding into Georgia and laying siege to Odessa. Nikolai dies and his sone quickly brokers for peace.

Åland, Finland and Kexholm goes to Sweden - they are poor regions anyway, and since Russofication has not started, they still have Swedish laws and a large percentage speak Swedish.

The Kingdom of Poland is re-established. It is not very big, more like the Duchy of Warsaw before the last Polish partioning, but it gives Austria a desired buffer between themselves and Russia, and the French a loyal ally against possible Prussian expansion. A Habsburg is elected King to ensure Austrian cooperation in the scheme - they are worried about their own Poles in Galizia and their reaction to a Polish state (the 1848 revolts are not far away), but agree with a Habsburg ruler.

Britain is satisfied with the limitation on Russian expansion in Asia the treaty contains. The Russians are ousted from Persia and not allowed into Afghanistan anymore, both are considered British sphere of influence. The British are not too happy with increased French influence on the continent, but they are also worried about the increased Prussian influence and possible designs on Hannover, so they allow it.

So, what are the changes of this timeline?

Sweden is stronger with Finland. What will this mean for the Pan-Scandinavist movement, especially as Sweden is seen as a state with a successful army? Will Sweden lend more support to Denmark during the two Schleswig wars, and will Austria and Prussia be more likely to back down because of it? Austria might have friendly relations to Sweden since fighting on the same side in the Crimean War and the issues can perhaps be resolved diplomatically? If Sweden and Denmark joins in a Scandinavian state, will the Norweigans be as inclined to form their own state?

I can see Bismarck playing the revanschist feelings in Russia when the time comes to confront France. A Russo-Prussian alliance allows the Russians to swallow the Kingdom of Poland a mere 15 years after its forming - France, Austria and Poland on the same side loses the war and Germany forms. Bismarck still wants Austria on his side and extracts no indemnities or territory from the Austrians after the war, as in OTL. However, the Poles will likely see the Austrians in a better light after they fought for the Kingdom of Poland. Many Poles likely flee to Galizia - when the Polish Legion is formed later, it is going to be stronger, have a better moral fibre and a lot more recruits, and be seen as less of a threat by the Austrians.

How will ww1 look in this case? Can Bismarck maintain the Drekaiserbund despite even harder Russo-Austrian frictions? Scandinavia will likely be in tensions both with Russia, which has a Swedish-speaking minority in Estonia and over Finland, and with Germany over Schleswig. If the Norweigans stay in Scandinavia and these tensions remain, Scandinavia might align more with Britain and perhaps also a bit with France (historically, the alignment was more towards Britain by Norway, while Sweden and Denmark were more aligned towards Germany).

Will Wilhelm II alienate Russia and perhaps Scandinavia?
So, what are you implying would be the terms of the peace treaty?
- Unless the Austrian emperor becomes king of Poland(therefore personal union between the two) they're not going to accept an independant poland.
-Would the Ottomans gain much else? Transcaucasia, crimea and a bit more of Bessarabia maybe? Or is that going to far? Independant Bessarabia(a buffer between russia and the ottomans)?
-Russia hadn't taken even Kokand and Bukhara at this point, so we could see them being forbidden to take any more territory in central asia, not just afghanistan and persia.
-What would Britain gain? If the far east war goes for longer, they could take parts of Alaska/the kuril islands


WW1 might not even happen, if Austria is stronger or Poland on France side during franco prussian war.
 
Well, instead of Franc Josef becoming a King of Poland, more likely is making some other Habsburg a king - maybe arduke Albert?
 
I would seem to have trouble finding my 'Longer Crimean War' story - the EZBoard hack of a couple of years ago deleted it from the Archives at AHF and my bankruptcy which wiped out the new Infinity Wanderers website deleted it from there... I suppose I may have a copy at my parents' - if not, anyway, it was the thing I had in the back of my mind last night but couldn't think of !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
More extensive Crimean War

There was a strng possibility that Swenden could have been convinced to enter the war. What if the French and British efforts in the Baltic were increased and troops landed in Finland. This could well have encourage Sweden to join the war and might have resullted in a bigger victory much sooner.
 
Probably the Swedes dropped the idea because they feared they'd have to defend Finland in a later war against Russia, and in this case, they wouldn't necessarily be able to count on half of Europe as allies.
 
more extensive crimean war

I think that Sweden could probably count on Great Britain as the Russian were considered a threat to the British Empire for most of the latter part of the 19th century. It would have required Sweden to spend a lot more on defense and maintain a far larger military.
 
I should keep an eye on this--in my Afrikaner TL, I have a larger Crimean War and a "Crimean War 2.0" in the 1870s.

I posted a thread about Sweden entering the war and someone said that this would be a bad idea--without foreign help, Sweden would not be able to hold onto its conquests and would be vulnerable to Russian revenge. This person said that Sweden's population was too small to create a military strong enough to defend the new territories.

Of course, if Sweden gets the territories in the war, might they be able to raise more armies from those populations, or are they too small?
 

HurganPL

Banned
Prussia wouldn't accept a Polish state.
The Kingdom of Poland is re-established. It is not very big, more like the Duchy of Warsaw before the last Polish partioning, but it gives Austria a desired buffer between themselves and Russia, and the French a loyal ally against possible Prussian expansion. A Habsburg is elected King to ensure Austrian cooperation in the scheme - they are worried about their own Poles in Galizia and their reaction to a Polish state
Duchy of Warsaw included both territories from Prussian partition and Galicia.
 
The population of Finland is indeed smaller than Sweden's.

Combined, could they field an army decent enough to keep Russia at bay?

Hmm...perhaps I'll make the Swedes big customers for the Afrikaners in my TL.

(the Afrikaners, due to their small numbers, are quite inventive where weapons and tactics are concerned)
 
Combined, could they field an army decent enough to keep Russia at bay?

Hmm...perhaps I'll make the Swedes big customers for the Afrikaners in my TL.

(the Afrikaners, due to their small numbers, are quite inventive where weapons and tactics are concerned)

With Sweden, Norway, and Finland, the total population would be about 7 million. That's a lot smaller than Russia, but probably more "useable". Sweden would have to depend upon alliance structures to hold onto their territory.
 
IMHO this would imply quite a different attitude of Bernadotte and his successors. The Swedish Foreign Ministers didn't want to become involved in Denmarks conflict with the Germans and appear to have been satisfied with gaining Norway.
Such a move would mean a more revanchionist Swedish political forum bent on regaining Finland. THAT would probably scare off the Danes from alliance - when are we going to be on the menu!
But a Swedish - Danish alliance might also bring about conflict with Russia or Britain over the access to the Baltic.
I think Norway would still be bent on independence early 1900'. I don't see Denmark in union with Sweden - probably alliance of some sort, depending on circumstances.
 
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Another important point regarding Denmark is the unsettled succession issue in which the Tsar was an important player holding claims to part of Holstein, so being effectively able to block Danish succession. That kept Denmark from entering the Crimean War OTL.
 
Another important point regarding Denmark is the unsettled succession issue in which the Tsar was an important player holding claims to part of Holstein, so being effectively able to block Danish succession. That kept Denmark from entering the Crimean War OTL.

Wow, it's great to have this level of expertise around here! Anyway, the concern you mention may be important on its own, but in a gang-pile of Russia like that, Denmark may be able to decide to disregard such concerns - or at least trade neutrality for the Tsar's claims on Holstein.

I'm not sure what Denmark has to gain from attacking Russia in any case - unless there's an agreement with Sweden to hand over Norway or something, but that doesn't seem very realistic. I would think the Norwegians would start to get very peeved at being traded around, to say the least.
 
Wow, it's great to have this level of expertise around here! Anyway, the concern you mention may be important on its own, but in a gang-pile of Russia like that, Denmark may be able to decide to disregard such concerns - or at least trade neutrality for the Tsar's claims on Holstein.

I'm not sure what Denmark has to gain from attacking Russia in any case - unless there's an agreement with Sweden to hand over Norway or something, but that doesn't seem very realistic. I would think the Norwegians would start to get very peeved at being traded around, to say the least.

Thanks :eek: - the concern was very real and neutrality WAS seen as a means to calm the Tsar's views on succession, which not only applied to Holstein but by the Danish kings being duke of Holstein also to the Kingdom!

I would have the Danes get assurances from the other great powers that the Tsar's claims could be brushed aside when need arises - succession - but I don't think that possible as it would make for some awful consequeces in any part of Europe where inheritance was the way to power - almost everywhere.
So no gains for Denmark.

And neither do I find the Norwegians would accept being shuffled around - they'd claim independence.
 
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