More Ethiopia TLs

Which Ethiopia TL would you like written?

  • Axum Lives! (Axum survives)

    Votes: 12 23.1%
  • Prester John and King John II Unite! (A Portuguese-Ethiopian alliance emerges in the 15th Century)

    Votes: 21 40.4%
  • A Zagwe's Ethiopia (The Zagwe Dynasty remains in control of Ethiopia)

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • Ethiopia, United She Stands! (Ethiopia avoids the Zemene Mesafint/Era of Princes)

    Votes: 17 32.7%

  • Total voters
    52
How much do you know about Ethiopia’s tactics and style of warfare?

I believe there’s gunpowder in Tigray - could that work?

Only what I could find off JSTOR. Ethiopia adopted the Askumite traditions of regional tribal regiments. However, Zara Yakoub did reform the army that landless soldiers would be seen as elites, while landholding peasants would be seen as less glamourous normal troops. Yet these regiments played kingmaker and by the 1560's it was a serious problem, coupled with Ethiopia being weekend from wars with Harar. It seems the Oromo migrations where an equivalent to the Islamic invasions of the Byzantine Empire and Persia, in striking at two weakened powers.

Gunpowder could work, as it seemed each soldier had his own equipment but the overarching question is what can be done to keep Ethiopia stable.
 
Only what I could find off JSTOR. Ethiopia adopted the Askumite traditions of regional tribal regiments. However, Zara Yakoub did reform the army that landless soldiers would be seen as elites, while landholding peasants would be seen as less glamourous normal troops. Yet these regiments played kingmaker and by the 1560's it was a serious problem, coupled with Ethiopia being weekend from wars with Harar. It seems the Oromo migrations where an equivalent to the Islamic invasions of the Byzantine Empire and Persia, in striking at two weakened powers.

Gunpowder could work, as it seemed each soldier had his own equipment but the overarching question is what can be done to keep Ethiopia stable.
There’s also the Ethiopian preference of enveloping the enemy through simultaneously attacking the left and right flanks.

Could Portuguese and other European advisors assist in the reorganization of the Ethiopian Army?
 
There’s also the Ethiopian preference of enveloping the enemy through simultaneously attacking the left and right flanks.

Could Portuguese and other European advisors assist in the reorganization of the Ethiopian Army?

They could but I'm skeptical, reorganizing the army requires reorganizing the state, as army loyalties where not absolute. Western tactics would not be the end all be all until the west develops superior enough technology where the only way to fight the west is to do so on their terms in all respects.
 
They could but I'm skeptical, reorganizing the army requires reorganizing the state, as army loyalties where not absolute. Western tactics would not be the end all be all until the west develops superior enough technology where the only way to fight the west is to do so on their terms in all respects.
What would you recommend?
 
What would you recommend?

There would have to be a way for an Ethiopian King to call upon soldiers, and not worry about army units fighting only when they feel like it, or against them. I figured you know more about this than I. Unless the position of Ras Tafari could be shifted from one of nobility to at least making it meritorious, perhaps any kind of payment would have to be dictated by results, I'm kind of spitballing here to see what see can stick?
 
There would have to be a way for an Ethiopian King to call upon soldiers, and not worry about army units fighting only when they feel like it, or against them. I figured you know more about this than I. Unless the position of Ras Tafari could be shifted from one of nobility to at least making it meritorious, perhaps any kind of payment would have to be dictated by results, I'm kind of spitballing here to see what see can stick?
You could have Zara Yaqob successfully recruit European advisors after the 1441 Council of Florence and use any of these European advisors to extensively reform the Ethiopian Army. IOTL, he was somewhat successful in bringing the regional nobles under the control of the central government. If foreign advisors can train and arm Ethiopian forces, then he might be much more successful and establish longer-lasting centralization. What do you think?
 
You could have Zara Yaqob successfully recruit European advisors after the 1441 Council of Florence and use any of these European advisors to extensively reform the Ethiopian Army. IOTL, he was somewhat successful in bringing the regional nobles under the control of the central government. If foreign advisors can train and arm Ethiopian forces, then he might be much more successful and establish longer-lasting centralization. What do you think?

I'm going off my rudimentary experience with Sengoku period Japan, you have to work from reforming society, not the army. Most European states where still feudal and relied on nobility for troops and commanders, so I do not see what they could help offer when new and military tactics are not the answer. Europe was not objectively stronger against any society in either weapons or tactics along until the development of rapid-fire gunpowder weapons.

Sengoku Japan had a similar problem with local feudal strongmen playing kingmaker, that was only curbed when the nobility had checks on what forces they could raise, and how they could spend their resources. This saw peasants being forbidden to take up arms, and lords having to spend money to stay at the Shogun's capital for half of a year. Ethiopia it seems has to address similar problems but does not have the luxury of being a relatively isolated island nation.
 
I'm going off my rudimentary experience with Sengoku period Japan, you have to work from reforming society, not the army. Most European states where still feudal and relied on nobility for troops and commanders, so I do not see what they could help offer when new and military tactics are not the answer. Europe was not objectively stronger against any society in either weapons or tactics along until the development of rapid-fire gunpowder weapons.
Perhaps sending students and nobles to Europe could spark societal reforms?
 
Perhaps sending students and nobles to Europe could spark societal reforms?

Not to shoot this down, what kinds of European societies are we talking about here? There was nothing inherently special about Europe as a whole, nor would European institutions be some kind of standard to emulate, at least this early on. What Ethiopia seems to need is something close to an estates general, but I do not see the concept as being that foreign, that it would have to be either inspired or copied.
 
Not to shoot this down, what kinds of European societies are we talking about here? There was nothing inherently special about Europe as a whole, nor would European institutions be some kind of standard to emulate, at least this early on. What Ethiopia seems to need is something close to an estates general, but I do not see the concept as being that foreign, that it would have to be either inspired or copied.
Didn't England, France and Germany have traditions of strong monarchial states at the time? Continued Ethiopian contact with Western Christianity could see Ethiopian monarchs choosing which system could suit them and the Empire of Ethiopia which could lead to the emulation of England where the monarch's power was slowly decreasing. I doubt that the Ethiopian monarch would allow for this to occur and learn to deal with this but you could see the adoption of some legislative body like the English Parliament that gradually allows for common folk to gain representation in an Ethiopian system similar to the Estates General.
 
Didn't England, France and Germany have traditions of strong monarchial states at the time? Continued Ethiopian contact with Western Christianity could see Ethiopian monarchs choosing which system could suit them and the Empire of Ethiopia which could lead to the emulation of England where the monarch's power was slowly decreasing. I doubt that the Ethiopian monarch would allow for this to occur and learn to deal with this but you could see the adoption of some legislative body like the English Parliament that gradually allows for common folk to gain representation in an Ethiopian system similar to the Estates General.

With France and England, they developed quite differently from each, and "Germany" was more of an idea and a bunch of various states. I'm going to use the @LSCatilina symbol because I believe they know more. France had basically evolved from the old Frankish Kingdom and found beset by the problems of vassals that were much more powerful than the king, the Dukes of Aquitaine, the Dukes of Normandy later Kings of England, and the later the Dukes of Burgundy until the late 1400's.

England had suffered from a series of uncertain succession crises, wars against its neighbors in Scotland and Ireland to little effect, and from 1215 onward the beginnings of what we would gradually know as parliament, on top of its conflicts with the French. Hell English control in Ireland would be for the most part nominal until 1607. By 1441 it was well before the Wars of the Roses and rebellions against the Tudor monarchs, who could find themselves by parliament.

Again there is nothing "special" to learn from Europe. Ethiopia has to deal with the problem of tribal army regiments on its own, anything like an estates-general is nothing new or even revolutionary. Representation is not the problem as it keeping order, which England and France would have problems with even in the later 1500's.
 
Again there is nothing "special" to learn from Europe. Ethiopia has to deal with the problem of tribal army regiments on its own, anything like an estates-general is nothing new or even revolutionary. Representation is not the problem as it keeping order, which England and France would have problems with even in the later 1500's.
What other problems do you think Ethiopia has at this time?
 
@BBadolato
Very roughly : Estates Generals weren't really considered as popular or even upper classes representations but more as lay councils divided by language until the early modern era (Oil and Oc Estates) gather by the king as sort of big extended council and echo chamber, then used by nobles to temper monarchical tendencies. It wasn't until very late that they were seen as actually representative institution.
Provincial Estates (formally, Estates Generals of [X] province) were more regular and common, had a more important fiscal relative autonomy but limited to Pays d'état and shouldn't be confused with Parlements that weren't considered as representative at all, but part of the royal administration having essentially a judicial role dominated by Paris.

French and English were, obviously, very different institutional kingships even by the Late Middle-Ages (and before, would it be only because the French king was sacred, and not just crowned) and many of their institutional features illustrate nevertheless f the fact medieval royal hegemonic (monarchical power is really, as itself, appearing in the modern era) were as much fought against than trying to institutionalize themselves outside kingship proper.
Basically, you have as much an history (rather than tradition) of strong royal power emerging in both England and France (as well in Germany but it was knowing a lot of drawbacks until 1648) but as well an history of struggles against this emergence (would if be feudal, aristocratic, bureaucratic, intellectual, clerical, etc.).
I said "rather than tradition" because it wasn't part of medieval socio-cultural cores : the yerosolemite kingship was considered as "idealized" feudality from the beginning and while being largely French, never really went trough the same solidification and hegemony of power benefiting to the king. Even in a later stage, I doubt institutions would be seen as an exportation (after all the Kongo Empire didn't pulled an institutional Mejii even after being vassalized by Portugal)
 
@BBadolato
Very roughly : Estates Generals weren't really considered as popular or even upper classes representations but more as lay councils divided by language until the early modern era (Oil and Oc Estates) gather by the king as sort of big extended council and echo chamber, then used by nobles to temper monarchical tendencies. It wasn't until very late that they were seen as actually representative institution.
Provincial Estates (formally, Estates Generals of [X] province) were more regular and common, had a more important fiscal relative autonomy but limited to Pays d'état and shouldn't be confused with Parlements that weren't considered as representative at all, but part of the royal administration having essentially a judicial role dominated by Paris.

French and English were, obviously, very different institutional kingships even by the Late Middle-Ages (and before, would it be only because the French king was sacred, and not just crowned) and many of their institutional features illustrate nevertheless f the fact medieval royal hegemonic (monarchical power is really, as itself, appearing in the modern era) were as much fought against than trying to institutionalize themselves outside kingship proper.
Basically, you have as much an history (rather than tradition) of strong royal power emerging in both England and France (as well in Germany but it was knowing a lot of drawbacks until 1648) but as well an history of struggles against this emergence (would if be feudal, aristocratic, bureaucratic, intellectual, clerical, etc.).
I said "rather than tradition" because it wasn't part of medieval socio-cultural cores : the yerosolemite kingship was considered as "idealized" feudality from the beginning and while being largely French, never really went trough the same solidification and hegemony of power benefiting to the king. Even in a later stage, I doubt institutions would be seen as an exportation (after all the Kongo Empire didn't pulled an institutional Mejii even after being vassalized by Portugal)
So what would you recommend for Ethiopia?
 
So what would you recommend for Ethiopia?
Heh, I don't know : I just answered BBadolato there.
Still, I think it would be a better idea looking at Ethiopia own's institutions and structures and grow something out of it before assuming a foreign influence (and, arguably, a too great dependence on foreign support would probably have the adverse effect).%
The problem is that Ethiopia is really in a bad situation there, and even having them doing better against Adal (which isn't implausible, from the few I understand) doesn't put the empire in a much obvious better ground (while it might prevent a good part of regional political desintegration) : at the very least IMO, Ethiopia needs to not be isolated regionally which put the question of Nubian survival I think, given that Portugal doesn't have much to offer on the long run safe relatively ponctual support and possible clientelization (resolving no real problem, and unreliable at best as soon as Portugal is forced to focus elsewhere). I'd say that a significant PoD in the XIVth might be required, but not much details to give about it.
 
Heh, I don't know : I just answered BBadolato there.
Still, I think it would be a better idea looking at Ethiopia own's institutions and structures and grow something out of it before assuming a foreign influence (and, arguably, a too great dependence on foreign support would probably have the adverse effect).%
The problem is that Ethiopia is really in a bad situation there, and even having them doing better against Adal (which isn't implausible, from the few I understand) doesn't put the empire in a much obvious better ground (while it might prevent a good part of regional political desintegration) : at the very least IMO, Ethiopia needs to not be isolated regionally which put the question of Nubian survival I think, given that Portugal doesn't have much to offer on the long run safe relatively ponctual support and possible clientelization (resolving no real problem, and unreliable at best as soon as Portugal is forced to focus elsewhere). I'd say that a significant PoD in the XIVth might be required, but not much details to give about it.
Do you think any form of an Ethiopian Estates-General could be established?
 
Do you think any form of an Ethiopian Estates-General could be established?
I'm not sure than copy/pasting EG (even as a variant) would be much more sensible than trying to copy/paste Venetian Constitution (even as a variant). You might need to look onto what existed already in Ethiopia.
 
I'm not sure than copy/pasting EG (even as a variant) would be much more sensible than trying to copy/paste Venetian Constitution (even as a variant). You might need to look onto what existed already in Ethiopia.
I’m not completely sure, considering Ethiopia was already struggling to centralize under various Emperors.
 
In order to revive what seems to be a somewhat dead thread that has a lot of potential, I’d like to see people recommending what PoDs they’d like to see.
 
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