More efficient Italian tanks

I'm proposing of what happen if the Italian develop better tanks than they did in OTL. What will happen to Italian in Africa? Would new tank increase the Italian moral?
 
I'm proposing of what happen if the Italian develop better tanks than they did in OTL. What will happen to Italian in Africa? Would new tank increase the Italian moral?
IMO there are question: were they able to produce better designs?
 

Deleted member 1487

Is it wrong that when I saw this thread I thought of the old joke about Italian tanks and more efficient meant ALL gears in reverse?
 
The problem with the Italian Army in Africa was more than just the tanks.

1. Graziani, who decently understood logistics, did not understand mobile warfare. He did after all not command a mobile force, but rather 100 000 marching men.

2. The infrastructure in Libya was not suited to supply a large amount of men and vehicles.

3. The Italians, who might have had resources enough to fight on one front, tried to invade Greece while they needed to ship everything they had to Libya.

What the Italians need to be more successful in Libya:

1. A commander who understands mobile warfare. Bergonzoli might be such a person. He must also be able to resist Mussolini and have enough influence to make sure that Greece is not attacked, but that all resources go to Libya. These two traits I think Bergonzoli lack, he was not senior enough. Badoglio might do the trick, if he does not die in a plane crash.

2. Badoglio, as governor of Libya, might, just might, undertake infrastructure projects needed. The narrow gauge railroad extended to the Egyptian border instead of just Djebel Abdkhar could help a lot.

3. Absolute priority for the Libyan front. I mean both armoured divisions, all three motorised or semi-motorised divisions, breaking up infantry divisions to provide manual labout, plenty of artillery (the most modern), taking all the motorised small units from corps and armies and putting it there. It means the Italians in Libya might be a force of 70 000 men, fully motorised, with 100 M11/39 tanks, 50 Lancia armoured cars. 100 L3/38 tankettes (with 13,2mm autocannon) and 100 L3/35 tankettes and perhaps 20 L3/35 flame tankettes. They'll have 200 or so 47mm AT guns, ~100 65mm guns for direct fire, ~200 100mm howitzers, ~50 heavy artillery pieces and the support of most of the air force.

It will be a stretch to supply these forces, especially in offensive manouvres, but M13/40 tanks should be rolling in, and if all supplies goes to Libya, it should be possible.
 
No, not realistically. They can shoot off tracks and damage gears, turret rotation, main gun etc, but not penetrate the frontal armour. No dedicated AT weapon in the world could back then. That is why it was the Queen of the Desert.

AA guns 75mm and up, direct-firing artillery 100mm and up, air bombs and a few other weapons could take it out. Damage it beyond fighting capability is very much possible. The British had 50 Matildas for Operation Compass, many of them broke down and there were seldom more than 10-20 ready for service at any given time during the operation - the rest were in the workshops. The desert took a heavy toll on the machinery.

Against the A13 Cruiser IV, the M13/40 is not a winner either - the Cruiser IV has more armour and is MUCH faster. But the Italian 47/32 gun can take out the Cruiser at the same distances as the 2pdr can take out the M13/40, so it is really up to the first clean hit (the Cruiser IV will be able to take more "unclean" hits though, with the slightly better armour).
 
I'm proposing of what happen if the Italian develop better tanks than they did in OTL. What will happen to Italian in Africa? Would new tank increase the Italian moral?

The main problem is that italian command still saw the tank as an infantry support. The tankettes developed were good if used in that way and if the enemy lacked AT guns (so pretty useless against british forces in the desert).
A change in the war doctrines towards an highly mobile kind of war could do the trick, but it should happen quite early, 1935 IMO.

Badoglio might do the trick, if he does not die in a plane crash.

Badoglio, unfortunately, survived war. You are thinking of Italo Balbo, who arrived in Libya in 1940, too late to make any decisive change.
 
IMO there are question: were they able to produce better designs?

They were able to do so, eventually in OTL. The P40 tank was basically equal to an American Sherman tank, with 2.5 inch armor and a medium length 75mm gun, and had something like that been available in the Western Desert, it could have made a lot of difference.

Perhaps a POD is that Mussolini decides, in the early-1930s, that having swarms of small tankettes is less impressive than having a smaller force of big, imposing tanks. Something equivalent to the M13/40 appears by 1935 and the P40 (called the P38 in the ATL) appears in 1938.

Ita-P40.jpg
 
Without a doubt the earlier appearance of the M13/40 would alter the balance in North Africa and thus allow the Italians a better chance of taking on the British and win.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
They were able to do so, eventually in OTL. The P40 tank was basically equal to an American Sherman tank, with 2.5 inch armor and a medium length 75mm gun, and had something like that been available in the Western Desert, it could have made a lot of difference.

Perhaps a POD is that Mussolini decides, in the early-1930s, that having swarms of small tankettes is less impressive than having a smaller force of big, imposing tanks. Something equivalent to the M13/40 appears by 1935 and the P40 (called the P38 in the ATL) appears in 1938.

...

I don't know why, but that looks like an up-gunned Panzer 2 to me.
 
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