More effective Vlasov army

This thread is inspired by the Time-Life book on POWs during WWII- Gen Andrei Vlasov was probably the closest the Nazis had for being a competent, charismatic anti-Stalin military leader to head a Russian liberation army, but Hitler, Himmler & Nazi bureaucracy & racism distrusted his potential, meaning that only belatedly in fall 1944 was Vlassov given effective command over a substantial no. of Russian ex-POWs forming RONA- the Russian Liberation Army- by which time it was too late to affect the outcome of the war on the Eastern Front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlasov_army

What PODs then would be required for RONA to have become more effective to stand a chance of enabling Vlasov to have marched at the head of an anti-Soviet Russian liberation army which took Moscow ?\

Also, another related POD from the above wiki page- in July 1942, Vlasov was offered the choice to be flown out of the encircled Lyuban-Chudovo pocket, but declined, leadinbg to his later capture. WI he'd gotten on board that plane ? Would the prospect fo a Russian liberation movement have totally ceased to exist without a high-ranking disaffected Soviet general like Vlasov in German hands ?
 
This thread is inspired by the Time-Life book on POWs during WWII- Gen Andrei Vlasov was probably the closest the Nazis had for being a competent, charismatic anti-Stalin military leader to head a Russian liberation army, but Hitler, Himmler & Nazi bureaucracy & racism distrusted his potential, meaning that only belatedly in fall 1944 was Vlassov given effective command over a substantial no. of Russian ex-POWs forming RONA- the Russian Liberation Army- by which time it was too late to affect the outcome of the war on the Eastern Front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlasov_army

What PODs then would be required for RONA to have become more effective to stand a chance of enabling Vlasov to have marched at the head of an anti-Soviet Russian liberation army which took Moscow ?\

Also, another related POD from the above wiki page- in July 1942, Vlasov was offered the choice to be flown out of the encircled Lyuban-Chudovo pocket, but declined, leadinbg to his later capture. WI he'd gotten on board that plane ? Would the prospect fo a Russian liberation movement have totally ceased to exist without a high-ranking disaffected Soviet general like Vlasov in German hands ?

Melvin Loh

Basically, as you suggest something that makes the Germans realise that their best chance is to make use of widespread discontent against Soviet rule. Even if only a calculated ploy to have anti-Soviet elements doing a lot of the dying, especially say having the honour of the liberation of Leningrad and Moscow say. Might require Hitler having a period of lucidity or someone more logical replacing him.

Steve
 
i cant see vlasov divisions getting to moscow without asb stuff

however with only minor pods they could be much more usefull than they where

hitler didnt let them participate in any fighting till 1944-45

you could have him set them loose after stalingrad maybe (the germans had hundreds of thousands of hiwis on the rolls at that point still who would being willing to fight communism under vlasov.

if the group was well organized the could perhaps be something of successful army

hitler still loses and vlasov's group cant surrender
 
Many of the folks in Byelorussia and the Ukraine welcomed the Nazis as "liberators' with reports of people receiving them with bread and salt. All they have to do is be a little practical as in "let them do some of the dying instead of our Aryan boys" and "after the War is over we can do what we want with them". The Germans (and their Eastern European "helpers") can still go after the Jews, no changes needed there, and the White Russians/Ukrainians will mostly not care what the Germans do in Poland (no "slavic unity there").

If this is done from the start as a plan, will it change the outcome? Probably not but it might - making it to Moscow or making it to the oil fields (even if they are trashed USSR loses the oil even if Germans don't get much right away) could result in stalemate on the eastern front. Also, these will be very efficient anti-partisan troops.

If they Germans "win", the Vlasov troops can either be eliminated, or end up being the trutees in the slavic region prison camp where Nazis will rule. If the war ends with Nazis losing, these guys are really hosed - in the aftermath of WWII they will not be embraced as an anti-communist liberation movement. Allied victory probably sees A-bomb used on germany, and east/west line further east.
 
I was thinking about posting a thread in ASB related to this (with Vlasov saving the world, as it were). The funny thing is, that while Vlasov had friends in the German Army and even the SS, he was quite pro-democracy and all, and not the type to live in huts in the hills while German farmers settle their newly acquired Lebensraum.

Perhaps if you could get rid of Hitler, preferably rather early in the war (before the other Allies get too busy), and someone with a more practical, less 'racially' mindedset of goals takes over, something significant can achieved.
 
There were no shortage of White Russian generals willing to lead Russian collabortionist army, including such an oddity as converted Jew Shteifon who commanded Russian Waffen SS corps in Yugoslavia. Vlasov was useful, but he wasn't indispensable. As far as "Saviour Vlasov" concerned, this is ASB. You need some kind of sane German leader not possessed with Lebensraum idea for that.
 
Exactly. Replace Hitler and the Nazi Party with a group seeking revenge for WWI's defeat, no shortage of them in Germany post-1919, but not insane with programs of racist murder and it is quite plausible that the Soviet Union is defeated.

Otherwise impossible.

The fact that the German government was so deranged that they couldn't even imagine using the anti-Soviet Russians, Ukrainians and more, even with the intention to to betray them afterwards, speaks volumes on the sanity level in Berlin during the war.

Which is fortunate.
 
The Nazis really misused a lot of Soviets who were willing to fight against Communism. If they'd trusted them more, and treated them with real respect, they would have gotten more out of them. The Japanese made the same mistake; Asians who opposed the colonial powers initially welcomed the Japanese troops as liberators, until they proved themselves to be as arrogant and racist as the Europeans they replaced. At least the Japanese granted token sovereignty to their subject peoples, which is more than Hitler ever did.
 
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