More costly British victory in the First Opium War

The First Opium War was an almost unbelievably "easy" British victory for the Chinese of the time who would insist that China had almost won almost to the end of the Qing empire, for the British AFAIK, and of course for us in 2015.

So what if the Opium War was more costly? For example, the British are faced with large-scale urban warfare in Ningpo, or the British lose at Chenkiang and have to engage in bloody drawn-out campaigns to disrupt the caoyun system.

How does British policy change?
 
You'd need the Qing to fight a smarter campaign, basically guerilla warfare and scorched earth to lure and wear down the British deep in the countryside. The only problems are that (1) the Qing would be too prideful to cede ground and (2) their commanders are just too lousy. Basically, attrition would be the Qing's best ally, but also considered most 'shameful' route to take. The likelihood of Han Chinese aiding the foreigners is also there, though just as likely, they'd wreak havoc in their supply lines as bandits.
 
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You'd need the Qing to fight a smarter campaign, basically guerilla warfare and scorched earth to lure and wear down the British deep in the countryside. The only problems are that (1) the Qing would be too prideful to cede ground and (2) their commanders are just too lousy. Basically, attrition would be the Qing's best ally, but also considered most 'shameful' route to take. The likelihood of Han Chinese aiding the foreigners is also there, though just as likely, they'd wreak havoc in their supply lines as bandits.

I was thinking less of the Qing army and rather more of the local, that is Han Chinese, yibing militia which were never in force in the Jiangnan IOTL's Opium War.
 
I was thinking less of the Qing army and rather more of the local, that is Han Chinese, yibing militia which were never in force in the Jiangnan IOTL's Opium War.

And risk the militias simply spiraling into an uprising against the Qing? Probably not. In the unlikely event they oust the British occupiers, they might think about overthrowing the dynasty next.
 
And risk the militias simply spiraling into an uprising against the Qing? Probably not. In the unlikely event they oust the British occupiers, they might think about overthrowing the dynasty next.

1. I don't want them to oust the British, I want the Brits to lose more men in the Jiangnan and in Ningpo.
2. The Guangdong militia were deployed and did not, in fact, revolt afterwards....
 
The POD needs to be set pretty far back for something like that, given that sheer tech-discrepancy between the two states. Something to ensure that China doesn't have freaking poets running their military would do nicely.
 
Never understood why the Chinese didn't use their numerical superiority - for example, some thousands of British soldiers landing anywhere have no chance against human waves of ten thousands of Chinese warriors.
 
Never understood why the Chinese didn't use their numerical superiority - for example, some thousands of British soldiers landing anywhere have no chance against human waves of ten thousands of Chinese warriors.

The British often landed where they could be supported by battleships, to a battleship an army of a hundred thousand men standing shoulder to shoulder is not even challenging target practice. To the peasants of the province said army is a swarm of locusts. To the commander British land forces the army is a reason to simply pick a different landing ground..."Hey we have ships". To the soldiers of the landing force at worst the army of a hundred thousand men is just a few thousand as the rest get in each other's way while they are being slaughtered by ship's guns (even gunboats carry really heavy artillery by land warfare standards think 32pdrs vs 12 and 9pdrs). To the Bannermen said huge army is just a miserable starving shanty town on the move that makes it impossible to get a decent meal and is too cumbersome to fight.

However the OP did not ask about the how. The policy changes should likely be fairly simple but profound. The Western powers as a whole are likely to treat China with more respect if fighting against the Middle Kingdom does not prove such a pushover in the 1st Opium war. There could well be no Hong Kong or the British do not press for concessions elsewhere.

Possibly this might work to the detriment of China if it delays modernisation even further. However it would probably have slowed British and to some extent other powers intrusions at least for a decade or so.
 

RousseauX

Donor
You'd need the Qing to fight a smarter campaign, basically guerilla warfare and scorched earth to lure and wear down the British deep in the countryside. The only problems are that (1) the Qing would be too prideful to cede ground and (2) their commanders are just too lousy. Basically, attrition would be the Qing's best ally, but also considered most 'shameful' route to take. The likelihood of Han Chinese aiding the foreigners is also there, though just as likely, they'd wreak havoc in their supply lines as bandits.

The problem is that the win condition for the British is to maybe occupy a port or two, there was never the need for the British to go into the countryside.
 
What if instead of having the Chinese fight on their own, give them support from other nations? Perhaps the Japanese or the Germans don't like the potential for British victory and turn it into a proxy war of sorts.
 

RousseauX

Donor
What if instead of having the Chinese fight on their own, give them support from other nations? Perhaps the Japanese or the Germans don't like the potential for British victory and turn it into a proxy war of sorts.

Japan at the time was still under Tokugawa imposed isolationism, Germany did not exist as a country
 

RousseauX

Donor
Never understood why the Chinese didn't use their numerical superiority - for example, some thousands of British soldiers landing anywhere have no chance against human waves of ten thousands of Chinese warriors.

Because for one, the Qing did not view the war as a total war, they viewed it essentially as a variation of a barbarian raid on a frontier province. You lose, you give in to some of their demand and they leave you alone while you recover. One of the reasons why the Qing gave up so quickly was also because they feared that a continued war would inspire internal instability.
 
Because for one, the Qing did not view the war as a total war, they viewed it essentially as a variation of a barbarian raid on a frontier province. You lose, you give in to some of their demand and they leave you alone while you recover. One of the reasons why the Qing gave up so quickly was also because they feared that a continued war would inspire internal instability.

Hm, there was a first treaty that both sides agreed to but the British eventually rejected as they felt they hadn't earned enough and pressed on with the conflict. I can't remember the exact details, but I don't think it involved any territorial switches at all. Maybe if the Qing resistance is more successful on some level, the first treaty and its clauses (Or something similar to them) are held to?
 
Because for one, the Qing did not view the war as a total war, they viewed it essentially as a variation of a barbarian raid on a frontier province. You lose, you give in to some of their demand and they leave you alone while you recover. One of the reasons why the Qing gave up so quickly was also because they feared that a continued war would inspire internal instability.

And why didn't the Qing recover after their defeat?
 
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