More Complete Norman Conquest of Ireland?

TinyTartar

Banned
As we know from OTL, the Normans overran Ireland without too much organized resistance but quickly lost control of the situation, mostly due to lack of centralized leadership and the fact that many Norman lords were, unlike in England, becoming Irish in their cultural practices and were drifting farther and farther away from the English crown in their loyalty.

How do you think this could change?

By the time of the Tudors, the English controlled the Pale of Dublin and had a relatively secure bond with the lands of the Earldoms of Kildare and Ormond, but really, everywhere else was either virtually independent or only recognized English authority when it suited their needs in clan based disputes.

I think having the King of England actually visit Ireland after the conquest, or command the conquest itself, might lead to a more centralized form of rule in Ireland. Henry concerned himself with this matter very little, as he was known to do with basically anything that was not occurring on the continent. Having direct leadership might have made a difference early on.

Also, as for Norman culture of the landholders surviving, maybe having simply more Normans go to Ireland, and having bloodier campaigns to subdue the clans would help. Nothing ensures a lack of cultural melting like outright hatred and oppression and hostility.

Any thoughts?
 
I'd have to disagree the Normans 'quickly lost control'. The colony was essentially intact until the middle of the 14th century when the aftermath of the Bruce invasion and the Black Death hollowed it out. That's almost two whole centuries.

Also why would the English kings concern themselves with Ireland given there huge commitments elsewhere? The country was far from rich and strategically was not important until the Tudor era.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
I'd have to disagree the Normans 'quickly lost control'. The colony was essentially intact until the middle of the 14th century when the aftermath of the Bruce invasion and the Black Death hollowed it out. That's almost two whole centuries.

Also why would the English kings concern themselves with Ireland given there huge commitments elsewhere? The country was far from rich and strategically was not important until the Tudor era.

Fair enough. But the seeds for the downfall were sown quickly enough with the seemingly long leash given to the Norman Lords who took over the island, when coupled with the lack of support for them from the English Crown. The Normans had to adapt, and did so, at the cost of increased independence and therefore, weakness.

The point you made about the Bruce invasion was a fair one. It offered a truly galvanizing cause for the Celts to get behind, despite Edward's inferiority in comparison to his brother, but the fact that Ulster, which was a pretty secure Norman outpost beforehand turned with such a fury was truly unnerving to English control of the island, despite the English victory in repelling the invasion.

The Black Death was bad, sure, but it was bad everywhere, and I think that the lack of control that the English had that lead up to the laughable failure that was the Statues of Kilkenny in preserving Norman culture and allegiance to the crown had to have been mitigated beforehand.
 
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