More codetalkers in WWI/WWII

[Melvin Loh]

WI during WWI & WWII, in addition to the US Army & Marines capitalising on & utilising native American languages for code purposes- a la the Choctaws of the 36th TEXAS Div on the Marne, the renowned US Marine Navaho codetalkers, or the 4th IVY LEAVES Inf Div's Comanches at Utah Beach- other combatants had also utilised such unknown indigenous languages for their own communications code purposes ? WI say the British had used some of the more obscure Indian or African dialects, training up suitable speakers for that cryptography purpose from among their colonial forces, then used em in Africa, the Mideast or Burma ? Likewise, if Commonwealth armies had done the same thing- Canadians with some of their First Nations soldiers from the more obscure tribes, Australians from among their traditional Aborigines (esp from say Arnhemland or other areas where there wasn't as much black-white contact), Kiwis with some of their Maori soldiers ?

(Of course, admittedly there could be potential drawbacks- as illsutrated by 1 novel on the West Africans fighting in Burma during WWII- when the Nigerian soldiers actually try to communicate in each other in Hausa, but on the Jap side is 1 guy who spent time studying in London before the war & picked up some Hausa from Nigerians studying there- but anyhow...)

 

[Bill Cameron]

WI during WWI & WWII, in addition to the US Army & Marines capitalising on & utilising native American languages for code purposes...

Melvin,

As with the answer to your Navajo Code Talkers What If from a few years back or the answers to most of your racially based What Ifs, the answer to this one is: Nothing Much. I know the movie Windtalkers portrayed the USMC Navajo as war or battle winners, but the truth was far more prosaic.

Intelligence intercepts of tactical communications rarely result in anything overwhelming useful and the immediate nature of the communications intercepted usually mean the interceptors usually have little or no time to capitalize on their "coup".

(Of course, admittedly there could be potential drawbacks...

Aside from the wonderfully silly drawback in that novel involving a Japanese student in London hanging out with Nigerians, the actual drawbacks that limited the use and effectiveness of the OTL codetalkers are the relatively few numbers of speakers available to use such a "code" and the fact that the "code" languages used do not have the necessary technical vocabulary.

Hausa, Maori, Choctaw and the rest most likely won't have a word for machinegun or naplam or 105mm howitzer or any of the other objects their speakers will need to discuss and, if they do have the words, those words will be loan words from English or any of the "imperial" languages they're in contact with. The USMC's Navajos had to invent dozens of new words for Navajo in order to carry on their tactical communications essentially creating a code within a code and further increasing the chances of mis-communication among themselves. If going to have to create a code in Navajo to get the job done, you might as well create a code in English that 99.99% of your troops can use.

Codes, especially at the tactical level, must be both easy to use and usable by a wide number of people. They needn't be unbreakable, they just need to prevent the enemy's understanding of the intercepted communications for brief periods. Depending on a limited cadre of almost irreplaceable "speakers" using a "code" that is both incomprehensible to non-speakers and does not normally contain the technical information they must share to conduct your tactical communications is not exactly a good idea. Having a platoon or company out of the code "loop" because their Choctaw, Maori, Hausa, or Pig Latin "windtalkers" are either wounded, killed, or simply sleeping means the system isn't workable.

Yes, the USMC briefly used Navajo speakers in a single division in the Pacific and, yes, single US divisions used other native language speakers in other specific campaigns, but the advantage gained by that use coupled with the many problems associated with it and weighed against the risks presented by tactical intelligence intercepts meant that no one else bothered with the idea. If other people didn't bother to do it, especially in wartime, the benefits must not have been worthwhile.


Bill

 

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

Melvin,

The USMC's Navajos had to invent dozens of new words for Navajo in order to carry on their tactical communications essentially creating a code within a code and further increasing the chances of mis-communication among themselves. If going to have to create a code in Navajo to get the job done, you might as well create a code in English that 99.99% of your troops can use....


Yes, the USMC briefly used Navajo speakers in a single division in the Pacific and, yes, single US divisions used other native language speakers in other specific campaigns, but the advantage gained by that use coupled with the many problems associated with it and weighed against the risks presented by tactical intelligence intercepts meant that no one else bothered with the idea. If other people didn't bother to do it, especially in wartime, the benefits must not have been worthwhile.


Bill

Actually the NCT never miscommunicated using their code, something no other code ever achieved during the war. And you miss the point of a code. You don't want 99.99% of your troops to be able to use it. Then it would no longer be a code....

And the NCT were far more widely used than you seem to think. The entire USMC depended on them for several years, over 300 of them, with more being trained but never utlized because they already had all they needed. (Navajo Chairman Peter McDonald one of the latter.)

There were over a dozen tribes with code talkers recruited. The military even drafted Hopi to serve against their will and tradition of not going to war unless directly attacked.

I wish I could recall the source, but I remember one military analyst saying Iwo Jima was likely a much longer drawn out stalemate with the NCT contribution.

And yeah, I hated Windtalkers too, but probably not for the same reason as you. It's kind of like Mississippi Burning, a supposed film about a famous event in a minority group's history that gets turned into a film about how white felt about that minority. They both had the racist assumption that whites would not go to see a film unless the main character that was also white.

Melvin, I'd be interested in a POD on the opposite, that the USMC fails to recruit the NCT.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Actually the NCT never miscommunicated using their code, something no other code ever achieved during the war.

AmIndHistoryAuthor,

Which is beside the point. The point was that words had to be invented because the native vocabulary did not include them.

And you miss the point of a code. You don't want 99.99% of your troops to be able to use it. Then it would no longer be a code....

And you missed my point entirely also. With regular codes, anyone with a code pad can communicate in the code. With "windtalker" style codes, only fluent speakers can communicate in the code. That severely limits the utility of the code. It isn't whether 99.99% routinely use the code, it's whether 99.99% can use the code in the case of the original coder is incapacitated in some manner.

And the NCT were far more widely used than you seem to think. The entire USMC depended on them for several years, over 300 of them, with more being trained but never utlized because they already had all they needed. (Navajo Chairman Peter McDonald one of the latter.)

300 NCTs out of roughly 450,000 Marines is a pittance and more were trained than used because their use for coding tactical communications proved to be simply not necessary or worth the effort.

There were over a dozen tribes with code talkers recruited. The military even drafted Hopi to serve against their will and tradition of not going to war unless directly attacked.

So what? It doesn't matter why they were recruited, all that matters is whether they were used as codetalkers and they weren't. As for the Hopi, they could have applied for conscientious objector status as other religious groups did.

I wish I could recall the source, but I remember one military analyst saying Iwo Jima was likely a much longer drawn out stalemate with the NCT contribution.

I'd love to see that source if it exists, because nothing I've read implies any real advantage was gained at all. It was an intriguing idea that didn't provide the actual benefits hoped for. The US military could have Yiddish in the Pacific too, or Slovak, or any of a number of other minor European languages while having many more native speakers available and risking essentially the same chances of Japanese troops knowing the language is question.

This is not to denigrate the sacrifices made by Indians during WW2, but it is also an acknowledgment that their sacrifices weren't somehow special or extraordinary. Everyone got drafted and put through the same wringer alike. Suggesting that some ethnic group or race somehow made a significantly greater contribution than any other is racist on its face.

Yeah, I hated Windtalkers too, but probably not for the same reason as you. It's kind of like Mississippi Burning, a supposed film about a famous event in a minority group's history that gets turned into a film about how white felt about that minority. They both had the racist assumption that whites would not go to see a film unless the main character that was also white.

Hollywood's decisions are made by money and money alone. Seeing as the majority culture is a bigger potential audience, movies will be made with that audience in mind. After all, it's why both TV and movies are made with the average twelve-year-old in mind.

Melvin, I'd be interested in a POD on the opposite, that the USMC fails to recruit the NCT.

Again, the result will be: Not Much Difference.


Bill