More civilized New World versus Muslims

And now, shall we look to the west.... :D

Mississipi Rice (v2.0)

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Bronze Age New World

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Muslims

In order to give people the comfort of flexibility, it won't be restricted to Ottoman-backed Granadans only. It can be the the staying-rich Malinese, it can be the Almohads which managed to get through Las Navas de Tolosa... everything ! The PoD though must not be earlier then the moment of Umayyad conquest of Hispania completed.
 
A few hard battles, but the Amerinds would still be decimated by disease, and steel.

Not sure about that. You're gonna meet the Amerinds that already have at least 2 centuries of experience of metal-tools usage and most primarily exchanges of food crops AND germs. *Arawaks with freaking rice and Megalopotamians with Potatoes ! Well depend on the general political situation when the muslims arrived as well.... But even that will only give the muslims Caribbean region to breech on at the moment.

But the Indonesian pattern of Islamization will mostly apply here, especially to the trade-like Carribeans once they find muslim commodities interesting enough, but I'd say it won't be as rapid. Remember that this thread posites a scenario WITHOUT Aururian plagues, folks out there, so we will still be dealing with the possibility of foreign muslim takeover of the Carribeans, and this will depend on how close the behaviors of muslims that arrived there would be to the OTL Spaniards (though the closer to the Spaniards the muslims be, the lesser Indonesian pattern of Islamization will apply). And after that, the Indonesian pattern of Islamization will shift into applying on the coasts of Mesoamerica and Megalopotamia. However, the further from the coast, the lesser the effect will be.
 
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The Muslims won't bring over pigs, which according to 1491 was the fastest carrier of small pox that killed off the Native Americans. In general the light silks of the Muslims won't be as deadly as the tick infected wool of the Europeans. I think in general the Muslims would be less germ carrying than the Europeans, who were stinky and never bathed.

Amerinds on the other hand would not be threatened at all by the Muslims. A boat load of strangers appearing on the shore, muttering about allah or something, would not be intimidating.

To simplify, I would imagine the Amerinds would be able to learn the same amount of technology with half the disease likelihood. The Muslims will bring back, the melting, syphilis and tales of a pagan world totally unknown hitherto. The Portuguese were looking for signs of Saint Thomas the Apostle in Brazil and the Mormons proposed that Jesus came to America, I would be interested to see how the Muslims' logical gymnastics with a world so full of Pagans.

All though if there are any competent European monarchs around, the threat of Muslims profiting and even owning an entire New World would be reason to send at least a ship over there. The Portuguese in Africa felt they needed to outdo Muslim merchants from Timbuktu in contacting and securing trade with pagans in Africa. So I would imagine any competition between Muslim and Christian would soon be also enacted in the New World. Maybe a good cop bad cop routine would come into play?
 
The Muslims won't bring over pigs, which according to 1491 was the fastest carrier of small pox that killed off the Native Americans. In general the light silks of the Muslims won't be as deadly as the tick infected wool of the Europeans. I think in general the Muslims would be less germ carrying than the Europeans, who were stinky and never bathed.

Amerinds on the other hand would not be threatened at all by the Muslims. A boat load of strangers appearing on the shore, muttering about allah or something, would not be intimidating.

To simplify, I would imagine the Amerinds would be able to learn the same amount of technology with half the disease likelihood. The Muslims will bring back, the melting, syphilis and tales of a pagan world totally unknown hitherto. The Portuguese were looking for signs of Saint Thomas the Apostle in Brazil and the Mormons proposed that Jesus came to America, I would be interested to see how the Muslims' logical gymnastics with a world so full of Pagans.

All though if there are any competent European monarchs around, the threat of Muslims profiting and even owning an entire New World would be reason to send at least a ship over there. The Portuguese in Africa felt they needed to outdo Muslim merchants from Timbuktu in contacting and securing trade with pagans in Africa. So I would imagine any competition between Muslim and Christian would soon be also enacted in the New World. Maybe a good cop bad cop routine would come into play?

OTOH, pigs, IIRC, were also what gave Mesoamerica a pretty population boom post-Spanish conquest IOTL(correct me if I'm wrong though). But then again yeah due to 1)most likely primary aim for the muslims would be for trading, and 2) hence much less likely to occur, compared to the Europeans IOTL to see the muslims using deliberate tactics of spreading their diseases to decimate allegedly bothersome native population, or at least much less often they will be doing so, thus the Old World diseases won't be hurting them ITTL as much as IOTL, though it'll still be quite hurt. But there are still more of them(the natives) here compared to OTL, and more abundant and diverse food resources for them as well....

I think that, as long as the muslims won't be anything like the Almohads, then I agree. Then again, the Amerinds will be stronger ITTL anyway, so the damaged won't be as bad as their encounter with OTL Europeans.

Maybe, MAYBE we will see somewhat less tolerant general attitude from the muslims compared towards to the Pagans in the Old World. The New Worlders after all, still won't be as advanced as, say, India(which during this time was maybe one of the most advanced region on the globe. Remember that even if Mahmud Ghazni did destroy and pillage and plunder Hindu and Buddhist temples during his adventure, he still admitted the Hindus and Buddhist into dhimmi status.), and that they will be quite alien to the muslims. OTOH, the muslims will encounter abundance of exotic commodities, and so will the natives will find such from them. Based on what happened in Indonesia, I would think that the same pattern will apply here as well : the more a certain group that encounter the muslim traders depending themselves on trade(especially sea trade) as their main source to maintain their economy and living compared to on agriculture, the more vulnerable they are to Islamic influences.

The groups that are more into trade-relying economy will then be witnessing the advantage of converting to Islam, maybe by slowly, but surely. If we will then discuss the possibilities of Islamic attrocities in the New World in the future, they will mainly be coming from these native converts, I suspect.

But even if Islam will be mostly spread by trade, I don't think it'll be all pushing it to assume that there will be political advancement done by the foreign muslim new comers in the New World. But I think we have already discuss it, then even in the normal case(OTL still-native New World), Islamic colonization there will not be as fast as OTL's case of European colonization. ITTL's case where the natives are generally more advanced, double that at least. Also, ITTL we will see, related to the point of Indonesian pattern of Islamization, many groups that basically are analogue to the Javanese abangans, springing up here ITTL Americas. Some of them are, I think, bound to be quite wilder in fact....


And all those points I've made above, doesn't include the possibility of this MR+BANW New World already developed at least one exclusive, evangelical religion prior to the dawn of Islam in the area....
 
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OTOH, pigs, IIRC, were also what gave Mesoamerica a pretty population boom post-Spanish conquest IOTL(correct me if I'm wrong though). But then again yeah due to 1)most likely primary aim for the muslims would be for trading, and 2) hence much less likely to occur, compared to the Europeans IOTL to see the muslims using deliberate tactics of spreading their diseases to decimate allegedly bothersome native population, or at least much less often they will be doing so, thus the Old World diseases won't be hurting them ITTL as much as IOTL, though it'll still be quite hurt. But there are still more of them(the natives) here compared to OTL, and more abundant and diverse food resources for them as well....

I think that, as long as the muslims won't be anything like the Almohads, then I agree. Then again, the Amerinds will be stronger ITTL anyway, so the damaged won't be as bad as their encounter with OTL Europeans.

Maybe, MAYBE we will see somewhat less tolerant general attitude from the muslims compared towards to the Pagans in the Old World. The New Worlders after all, still won't be as advanced as, say, India(which during this time was maybe one of the most advanced region on the globe. Remember that even if Mahmud Ghazni did destroy and pillage and plunder Hindu and Buddhist temples during his adventure, he still admitted the Hindus and Buddhist into dhimmi status.), and that they will be quite alien to the muslims. OTOH, the muslims will encounter abundance of exotic commodities, and so will the natives will find such from them. Based on what happened in Indonesia, I would think that the same pattern will apply here as well : the more a certain group that encounter the muslim traders depending themselves on trade(especially sea trade) as their main source to maintain their economy and living compared to on agriculture, the more vulnerable they are to Islamic influences.

The groups that are more into trade-relying economy will then be witnessing the advantage of converting to Islam, maybe by slowly, but surely. If we will then discuss the possibilities of Islamic attrocities in the New World in the future, they will mainly be coming from these native converts, I suspect.

But even if Islam will be mostly spread by trade, I don't think it'll be all pushing it to assume that there will be political advancement done by the foreign muslim new comers in the New World. But I think we have already discuss it, then even in the normal case(OTL still-native New World), Islamic colonization there will not be as fast as OTL's case of European colonization. ITTL's case where the natives are generally more advanced, double that at least. Also, ITTL we will see, related to the point of Indonesian Law of Islamization, many groups that basically are analogue to the Javanese abangans, springing up here ITTL Americas. Some of them are, I think, bound to be quite wilder in fact....


And all those points I've made above, doesn't include the possibility of this MR+BANW New World already developed at least one exclusive, evangelical religion prior to the dawn of Islam in the area....

I don't know about a populaton boom due to pigs, I think in mesoamerica there was the brutality of the Spaniards and the epidemics that were more important. I do know that wild pigs made a huge impact on Hispaniola where we get Barbecue from. Which means that likely the Americas would be left without BBQ making this a dystopia for sure.

I think the trading aspect of colonization will be more important than outright conquest. Conquest might occur in areas totally devastated from disease, which likely will occur what with ships and rats being so closely related. I think the population will be large and diversely supported to the point that recovery will likely occur faster. No wipe outs will occur, most likely.
 
All though if there are any competent European monarchs around, the threat of Muslims profiting and even owning an entire New World would be reason to send at least a ship over there. The Portuguese in Africa felt they needed to outdo Muslim merchants from Timbuktu in contacting and securing trade with pagans in Africa. So I would imagine any competition between Muslim and Christian would soon be also enacted in the New World. Maybe a good cop bad cop routine would come into play?

Apparently I forgot to comment on this part.... what do you mean by good cop bad cop in this context ?
 
Apparently I forgot to comment on this part.... what do you mean by good cop bad cop in this context ?

I meant that the two competing colonizers might base their colonizing on either Spanish like conquest or Indonesian style trade and conversion. Or a mix of the two.

An interesting idea is that one day the Muslims try a smash and grab assault on a Native settlement and the next day some Christians show up offering to trade guns for coffee or cotton.
 
I don't know about a populaton boom due to pigs, I think in mesoamerica there was the brutality of the Spaniards and the epidemics that were more important. I do know that wild pigs made a huge impact on Hispaniola where we get Barbecue from. Which means that likely the Americas would be left without BBQ making this a dystopia for sure.

I think the trading aspect of colonization will be more important than outright conquest. Conquest might occur in areas totally devastated from disease, which likely will occur what with ships and rats being so closely related. I think the population will be large and diversely supported to the point that recovery will likely occur faster. No wipe outs will occur, most likely.

IIRC I read it somewhere that after all those brutality and epidemics, pork paid a fair contribution to the following population recovery on the region. Correct me if that's apparently not true though....

And yes, the muslims' business on the New World would be mostly for trading rather than conquest. The most important result from this would be the spread of Islam among the natives, that I dare you will be an epic whole process in its own right :D:D:D
 
I meant that the two competing colonizers might base their colonizing on either Spanish like conquest or Indonesian style trade and conversion. Or a mix of the two.

An interesting idea is that one day the Muslims try a smash and grab assault on a Native settlement and the next day some Christians show up offering to trade guns for coffee or cotton.

Oh I see.... But I'll guess that it'll be a mix of Indonesian style trade and conversion and a limited imperialism that's seldom to involving demographic displacement, and work both ways...
 
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