More Central Powers in WW1

Alcsentre Calanice

Alcsentre Calanice

Let's assume that both Sweden and Italy decide to join Germany in 1914/15. Could, after that, also Romania become part of the CP, since the allies are doing better againsst Russia and Romania sees the chance to grab Bessarabia? And with an earlier Russian collapse, who else can be driven in the war on the Central Powers' side: China? The Netherlands? Or can Japan switch the sides?

Little additional thougt: is an Austro-Italian breakthrough on the French-Italian border possible? To disengage the northern trench warfare?
 

wietze

- sweden easy - the admiral essen affair
- italy very possible

-netherlands, VERY unlikely, in otl they were attacked several times by the entente (including a large scale bombardment by planes) plus their illegal blockade against a neutral country, but they still opted to stay neutral. i think they correctly assumed that the british would directly make use of the situation by stealing the dutch colonies (a long time british practise, see south-africa). and furthermore a neutral netherlands is of more use to germany.

- romania, i do not know
- spain, maybe if attacked by france

TomB has an interesting (and quite plausible) WW1 timeline (on another site), called operation unicorn, where germany successfully invades ireland, and where spain gets attacked by france.

- united states, although very unlikely to become an active partner, if germany avoids otl's mistakes (unlimited Sub warfare/zimmermann) then it is very possible that the us becomes less and less tolerant to the entente (otl before USW the us got rather annoyed with britain), and when the US stays neutral and more annoyed, this means earlier restricting of entente credit (wilson thought about it in otl), and no unsecured loans, this means the end of entente finance by 1917, since that is the moment that britains securities for (secured)loans were exhausted
 

Lee-Sensei

G.Washington_Fuckyeah said:
Let's assume that both Sweden and Italy decide to join Germany in 1914/15. Could, after that, also Romania become part of the CP, since the allies are doing better againsst Russia and Romania sees the chance to grab Bessarabia? And with an earlier Russian collapse, who else can be driven in the war on the Central Powers' side: China? The Netherlands? Or can Japan switch the sides?

Little additional thougt: is an Austro-Italian breakthrough on the French-Italian border possible? To disengage the northern trench warfare?
Click to expand...
Why would Sweden join? If Italy joins in 1914, I'm expecting a shorter war. If not, I still see Germany losing and not gaining a lot of Allies. Not unless it looks like they're going to win.
 

wietze

because some crazy russian admiral almost attacked the swedish fleet on his own initiative. Look up adm. Nicolai Essen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Essen

from wiki
Nevertheless, on 9 August 1914 Essen led part of his fleet towards Gotland to contain the Swedish navy and deliver a note of his own making which would have violated Swedish neutrality and may have brought Sweden into the war
Click to expand...
 
shiftygiant

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
The Netherlands was in a Treaty with the United Kingdom, and weren't exactly ready to tear it apart. Give them a reason to dislike the British and they might go for war.

Sweden is more possible however I doubt they'd get boots down in Western Europe, most likely they'd fight on the Eastern Front in Finland and the Baltic regions.

Switzerland? The German speaking populous sided with Central Powers, the French and Italian speakers with the Entente. The Grimm-Hoffmann affair could enter Switzerland into the war with the CP. It goes badly, the Western Allies declare war on the 'traitorous' Switzerland. Alternatively the French enact Plan H to march through Switzerland in 1916/17. For this though the French need to be more desperate.

Italy is unlikely. There was a reason they didn't join the war until 1915, and there's too much bad blood between them and Austria to sustain a long lasting alliance.
 

Napoléon Caesar Augustus

shiftygiant said:
The Netherlands was in a Treaty with the United Kingdom, and weren't exactly ready to tear it apart. Give them a reason to dislike the British and they might go for war.
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I really don't think so. They are very likely to lose their entire Empire to the British as they have no way to defend it, and there isn't a whole lot the Central Powers can offer them that would actually be of much interest. There's nothing to gain and everything to lose.
 

SvoHljott

shiftygiant said:
Italy is unlikely. There was a reason they didn't join the war until 1915, and there's too much bad blood between them and Austria to sustain a long lasting alliance.
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and there wasn't between Austria and the Ottomans? I don't think that's really a reason.
 

darthfanta

SvoHljott said:
and there wasn't between Austria and the Ottomans? I don't think that's really a reason.
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And because the Italians want Austrian lands.Although,if one can convince that them that they can get Savoy,Nice,Corsica and perhaps other parts of Southern France instead.......
 
shiftygiant

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
SvoHljott said:
and there wasn't between Austria and the Ottomans? I don't think that's really a reason.
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The Ottomans and the Austrians only allied after war was declared. The Ottomans had a good deal with Germany and were willing to overlook Austria. Italy was not.

The Italians joined the Triple Alliance in 1882 was because of issues with France, and their relationship with Germany within the Alliance was good (great, even). However, the clinch that broke that alliance came with Austria. Austria was in control of Tyrol, Istria and Dalmatia, three areas the Italians saw as Italy occupied by Austria. By uniting them into Italy, many saw a completion of Risorgimento. Italy was neutral in 1914 because they saw their part in the Triple Alliance as purely a defensive role, not an offensive one. And, ultimately, by 1915 the Italians joined the Entente because they had more to win than if they joined the Central Powers, these three areas agreed upon being what Italy would get at the end of the war(See the Treaty of London).

In fact, them not getting Dalmatia despite it being agreed upon in London was what caused their 'maimed victory' and led to Fascism.

If you can convince Italy that they have more to gain with the Central Powers backing (Malta, Corsica, Savoy, Corfù and Nice), then they would maybe join. Perhaps it goes worse for France at the beginning of the War?

Overall, Sweden is the most likely candidate for a CP expansion, not Italy.
 
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jkay

The problem with that is aggression, which Austria and then Germany did, is the worst way of making buddies. That's because "War is hell," General Sherman was totally right about; he'd know.

And WW1 was the most hellish because it had the worst stupid, including stupidly started; except the Japanese out of that whole world of war.
 

Richter von Manthofen

For Italy joining in on the Cps side you Need a better performance of Austria Hungary during the opening moves of the war. Lets assume they keep three armies fighting the serbs and achieve a victory in late 1914.

With a better diplomatic performance Germany should be able to Broker a deal between Italy and A-H. No necessarily a lasting one, but probably Holding for the duration of the war. But even a (true) neutral Italy would be a boon for the CPs.

Militarily the Italians would probably lose their colonies with the possible exception of Libya when old enemies soon would be friends. Italian entry would free the Austrian navy and make operations against the Ottoman Empire quite difficult. Overall it might be a replay of the WWII med campaign (sort of) but with better chances for the CP (Having a betetr force relation). Coal shrtages would limit operations, but never stopping them alltogether. Sub Bases in Italy (sicily) would definitely hurt the Entente.

Actually I think Romania is more difficult to bring in on the CPs side. The only real supporter of this idea was the old king.

The Dutch will sell happily to Germany but never risk their colonies.

Sweden is possible with the Essen affair, but their contribution would be limited. The ability to base a few Units in Sweden might be a nuisance but not really a threat.

Spain - unlikely
Norway - no
Denmark - thats not WWII, Denmark is no friend of Germany, but also not an enemy Denamrk also suffers by the bockade.
The swiss have nothing to gain.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
darthfanta said:
And because the Italians want Austrian lands.Although,if one can convince that them that they can get Savoy,Nice,Corsica and perhaps other parts of Southern France instead.......
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I still think convincing Austria to give up Trieste and Trento must be a part of it (which is unlikely), Italy taking side with a nation they despise (Austria) to attack nations they have somewhat mixed feelings about (Britain and France) need a very good carrot.
 

Deleted member 9338

I have a hard time seeing Spain enter the war on the Central Powers side. Their army and navy is still trying to recover from the Spanish American War. Also what can they gain, as everything they lost recently was to the Americans. The best they could hope for was wanting to take Morrocco. It is possible for the Spanish to tie down French colonial forces in North Africia for a while, maybe.

China has prospects if we put a POD right after the Boxer Rebellion with a German milatary mission to train the Chinese army. China did have a trivia cen with the Entante as the british and Japanese landed on Chinese soil to attack Tsing Tao. For me a very interesting what if.
 

von Adler

One thing is vital when discussing the von Essen affair and Sweden.

People forget that von Essen was wrong. He got intelligence tthat the Swedish navy was concentrating at Fårösund in Gotland - and assumed that this was an offensive action (in that he was right, Fårösund cannot support the navy, it is a very minor port) and that the Swedish navy was grouping to join the German fleet in an offensive operation against Russia.

However, the Swedish navy was not at Fårösund at the time. Indeed, it has never been concentrated there. It was conducting exercises in the southern archipelago outside Stockholm at the time.

The plan of von Essen was to detach a squadron of destroyers to mine the suthern archipelago outside Stockholm while he and the main fleet sailed to Fårösund to demand that the Swedish navy surrender to Russian captivity or be destroyed, bfore it could join the Germans.

In reality, von Essen would have found perhaps a single 3rd class torpedo boat converted to a patrol boat, or an armed trawler at Fårösund, while his destroyer squadron would run into the main force of the Swedish navy.

He might very well have cancelled the operation on his own when he found Fårösund empty - but the question is if he would have time to recall the destroyer squadron bfore it encounters the Swedish navy.

The Swedish army had 6 line divisions, 6 reserve divisions (under set-up in 1914) and 1 cavalry division 1914, a total of about 220 000 men and a landstorm (consisting of older classes) of about 170 000 men.

During the 1912 exercises at Falköping, Russian and German observers noted the skill of Swedish officers and men and the new 105mm Bofors howitzers.

Artillery available:
338x75mm field guns
204x84mm field guns (old from 1881 without recoil system)
~50x105mm howitzers (modern bofors design)
~30x120mm field guns (old from 1885 without recoil system)
56x150mm howitzers (modern krupp design)

There were 11 planes available.
 

Deckhand

SvoHljott said:
and there wasn't between Austria and the Ottomans? I don't think that's really a reason.
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90% if Italy's coal came from Britain by sea. There was IIRC one rail line north to germany to try and replace that flow with, even if Germany had the capacity. If Italy goes to war on Britain, their industry, fleet and rail net, will tank very shortly. There is a reason Italy chose the Entente. The best you can hope for is neutrality from Italy, or in time honoured Italian fashion, they might come in after the CP has already won and victory is assured.
 

wietze

instead of thinking of all the countries that could join the central, it is worth noting which countries could stay (more) neutral
I already mentioned the US, who's staying neutral would me disaster for the entente
Italy staying neutral, instead of joining the entente would make a difference already.
 
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