More British light Armor in early WWII

loiter and engage, and take off in short notice, climb and engage. Defiant can do #1 and maybe #2, Hurricane is better in both. Reliably chase & kill a bomber,

The problem being that no fighter can take off clime engage chase and kill a bomber unless its already been detected and there is a GCI system to control the intercept. Prior to that you are operating a standing patrol burning fuel in the hope you will get a visual sighting. Chain Home ( which as a GCI system rather than a detection only system) is a game changer precisely because it allows the defending fighters ton sit on the ground fuelled up and fly to a precise point in order to engage. Prior to that the defender with an unknown fuel reserve an depending on the relative positions of the aircraft has a limited time of engagement with forward firing guns. The concept of the Defiant is enable a longer engagement time by zero deflection shooting at a +19 degree angle, ideally. A concept which is repeated in the Schrage Musik armament arrangement and maybe the P61.

The is btw is entirely different from the Me110 which does hark back to the WW1 two seaters which has its main armament fixed forward and a singe rifle calibre mg for defence in the back.

BTW - quite a few posts advocating what you admitted was a bad idea.

And green gives 172mph cruise. so go figure.

And it was a bad idea, just not a stupid idea at the time. What then follows is as much about production and workforce management as the combat capabilities of an aircraft that barely sees combat in the original role. Don't forget this is peacetime contracting with no idea when war will break out. The contract is let. The subcontracts are let, and the resource is finite You are paying for Defiants as ordered in some way whatever so if you've got a lemon make lemonade. And as it happens as a Night fighter, gunnery trainer, ECM platform and target tug it turns out to be useful. No need to acquire a diffierent aircraft or divert production of a more modern combat aircraft so soon. And yes its making the best of things but there is a war on and priorities.

And the ECM platform is is an actual thing 515 Sq with mandrel and moonshine, 151 Sq is listed as nightfighter radar countermeasures.

Incidentally I would also class the Ju88 in the same way, its intended as an unescorted fast bomber, which fails because of GCI radars, an the germans then rerole to do other things, inc being a puny medium bomber with escorts.

Explaining away the next four attempts at a schnellbomber is harder.


The point was that in ww1 British tanks have had 57mm cannons. Those were derivatives of naval cannons - outrageous, I know.

But those guns have nothing in common with the ww2 gun except calibre, which is a function of the ergonomics of manual ammunition handling. They seem to have made use of machinery calibrated previousy used but thats all.

British were also supplying obsolete Vickers light tanks

21 of them - and its a useful recon vehicle all the others are delivered pre war or taken from pre war colonial duties.

2lb (HE?) shells makes no tactical difference

Shell in UK parlance is HE ( shot is the AP) and there was one developed for the 2lb but deemed inneffective although AT units allegedly kept some for close protection Which is probably what the Australians used. The shell is a graze fuze and the idea was to bounce it off the ground and then explode, which requires a very accurate estimate of distance to be effective and ofc if the target is an AT gun with a shield or some kind of emplacement requires an even grater accuracy to be effective. Vs infantry in the open, as a close protection weapon maybe, but then the Aussies were mounting anti submarine weapons on Matildas and the American units in the pacific regarded the 37mm as the best AT gun ever, because it has canister round, a 2lb with a minimal delay time fuze would have a similar utility or graze. Tank units in the desert apparently preferred to load up with AP.

Again the sources commonly quoted on this are actually 3 guys Wardrup, ?Crisp and Moorehead who get continually requoted by later writers. Perfectly valid sources but have a limited perspective. The same thing happens in regard to the US tank destroyer force, there is one very well written book which happens to give an entirely wrong impression of the intent and practice of the TD force because thats the writer's incorrect impression. There is a guy writing a the desert war based on actual contemporary documentation but he is on vol 1 and its £280 on amazon.
 
A 2lb shell is effectively a hand grenade. Put in the right place, such as amongst a gun grew and it'll do what you want. The only problem I see with that is the need to place it exactly on target, where as with a larger round you have more leeway in how close you have to get to your point of aim. Handy when the target is hundreds of yards away and you can only just see it.
 
A 2lb shell is effectively a hand grenade. Put in the right place, such as amongst a gun grew and it'll do what you want. The only problem I see with that is the need to place it exactly on target, where as with a larger round you have more leeway in how close you have to get to your point of aim. Handy when the target is hundreds of yards away and you can only just see it.

The effect or artillery fire is often overstated. Even with 25 pounder shells you need a lot to kill dug-in troops

upload_2018-11-9_17-42-27.png


http://nigelef.tripod.com/wt_of_fire.htm
 
Big, really big, difference in doctrine. The UK decided that all they needed to do was keep the enemy in their shelters until the last possible moment so that as they emerged, they were confronted with hordes of Tommies with bayonets fixed saying Hande Hoch. Suppression was the name of the game and they played it well. Often a fire mission would cease, making the Germans think the bombardment was over and they would start to emerge to man the slit trenches, only for another 2-3 minutes of shelling to commence. it was always a vital decision for those in the shelters. Is it over? If it was, you had better man the trenches. If it was not, manning the trenches was folly. But was it really over?
Other nations decided artillery was there to destroy the enemy. Well, as can be seen from the tables, that took a hell of a lot of shells for a hell of long time. Have you got the logistic capability to keep this up?
 
Should Britain have armed the close support tanks with the 6 pdr that was in the Vickers Medium D that was sold to the Irish Free State instead of the 3.7", 3" and 94mm Howitzers?
 
Should Britain have armed the close support tanks with the 6 pdr that was in the Vickers Medium D that was sold to the Irish Free State instead of the 3.7", 3" and 94mm Howitzers?
No, the HE content too low.

Now replace that old 8cwt 6 pdr with a 75mm, like the 13 pdr 9cwt discussed upthread, will be in the ballpark for what's needed.
 
Well you just need artillery on a tank chassis

If you develop the line of thought that put field guns in infantry regiments to provide direct fire support.

Alternatively, you put an observer and several radios on a tank chassis, and call up a stonk.
 
The Birch Gun (and that is a LOVELY picture of one, never seen one so clearly) is one of those great "What if's.." or at least a missed opportunity of the British pre WW2 army. The future was right there before them but financial parsimony and old fuddy duddies made them ignore (what to us is now) the obvious.
 
And sadly none of them survived. Just think, the dark days after Dunkirk someone drags one out of the back of a storehouse and a light goes off in Churchills brain. The hundred or so Vickers Mediums being used for training get striped down and rebuilt as Birch Guns with 25 pdr guns.
 
And sadly none of them survived. Just think, the dark days after Dunkirk someone drags one out of the back of a storehouse and a light goes off in Churchills brain.

Until Brooke points out you can X hundred towed 25pdrs for the cost of 100 Birch guns.

Self-propelled direct fire guns just don't fit into the British approach.
 

Driftless

Donor
Well, Churchill played a key role in the introduction of the original tanks in WW1 and god knows he aggressively pursued alternative approaches in warfare.
 
Been reading through the thread - lots of interesting stuff here! :D I've seen a lot of weird looking tanks in here as well as serious discussion, though, and whilst it isn't entirely related, check out this one the Italians designed for WW1. Meet the Ansaldo Magrini, one of Italy's first tank designs from WW1:

UbRDkQ1.png


There are specifications floating around, but I'm afraid they're all in Italian (and interestingly enough, Russian, as I've found some mentions that the plans were sold to the USSR at some point, but never built) and I probably wouldn't be able to get much more than some gibberish out of Google Translate if I tried to transcribe it, but fortunately, a bit of googling managed to turn up some information:

The Ansaldo Magrini Mangiapan was designed in 1916 by major Magrini as a "mobile fort" and was one of Italy's first tank designs. It featured multiple sets of tracks to help it traverse the crater filled battlefields of no-man's land. To power these tracks there were four 200hp engines in the centre of the tank which then drove two electric motors at the front and back, propelling this massive 70t vehicle to an estimated 20 km/h. It also unusually for that era featured two rotating turrets equipped with 76mm (some sources state 75mm or 105mm) cannons, as well as having multiple machine guns fitted around the hull. The design was approved by the direzione generale del regio esercito but was cancelled soon after because of the high cost and feasibility of such a complex design. Instead interest moved to the Fiat 2000 and purchasing tanks from France and Britain.

An artist's concept of what the final product might've looked like:

DaGeLEE.jpg


At seventy tons and with a crew of twenty I don't think it can be classed as a light anything, other than maybe light on sanity :p
 
Been reading through the thread - lots of interesting stuff here! :D I've seen a lot of weird looking tanks in here as well as serious discussion, though, and whilst it isn't entirely related, check out this one the Italians designed for WW1. Meet the Ansaldo Magrini, one of Italy's first tank designs from WW1:

UbRDkQ1.png


There are specifications floating around, but I'm afraid they're all in Italian (and interestingly enough, Russian, as I've found some mentions that the plans were sold to the USSR at some point, but never built) and I probably wouldn't be able to get much more than some gibberish out of Google Translate if I tried to transcribe it, but fortunately, a bit of googling managed to turn up some information:



An artist's concept of what the final product might've looked like:

DaGeLEE.jpg


At seventy tons and with a crew of twenty I don't think it can be classed as a light anything, other than maybe light on sanity :p

It's a Push me - Pull you!!!
 
Self-propelled direct fire guns just don't fit into the British approach.
I don't know, it fills the same role as the Royal Horse Artillery pre mechanisation. "If the cavalry are being forced into smelly mechanical contraptions it's only fair that the R.H.A has to suffer as well old boy."
 
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