More Battleships and No Aircraft Carriers for Germany

Most interesting read. Can you elaborate a tad more on that experimental converted carrier to be built ITTL? Do they still build the Ju-87C and Bf-109T (to fly from that experimental CV?), or they plan to start building carrier based fighters and dive bombers based on say Bf-109F and Ju-87D after 1940?

I've not decided yet. It will probably be:

1) A very crude conversion like the British Audacity;
2) A German equivalent of the USS Long Island;
3) A German equivalent of the BAVGs.

Probably 1 followed by 2 or 3. That is they do an "Audacity" because it should be quick and that will give them something to land and take off from. Then they follow that up with a more elaborate conversion that has lifts and a hangar.

However, I have noticed that the specification for the German fleet oilers is similar to the USN Cimarron class some of which were converted into Sangamon class escort carriers. Therefore the Germans will want to convert some of them instead of the projected liner conversions. But as I'm trying to keep this realistic they won't have the resources to convert any of them.

I also need a name for the experimental carrier. I don't want to use Graff Zeppelin or Peter Strasser. If nobody can think of a better name I'm going to call it Seelöwe (because I have that sort of sense of humour).

I was going to say no Bf109T, Ju87C or Fi167, but having thought about it maybe they do.

Initially the Kriegsmarine will buy some middle 1930s vintage Japanese naval aircraft to operate from the experimental carrier. These will be the aircraft in service in 1939, but the plan would be to replace them with imported Japanese monoplanes like the Zero, Kate and Val.

However, they aren't going to get the Zero until 1941, so the Bf109T might still be built to give the pilots experience of high performance fighters while they were waiting for the Zero, which they don't get because of the British blockade and Operation Barbarossa. Therefore they also do the Ju87C because the imports of the Kate and Val have been frustrated too.
 
Actually, the UK was pretty clueless about the extent to which the Nazis were cheating with the B and T.

I discussed this several years ago here:

According to the sources I have seen, such as The Royal Navy and Nazi Germany, 1933-1939: a study in appeasement and the origins of the Second World War, the UK had an idea that the Bismarck exceeded the treaty but no idea of the extent. It notes that Mr. Goodall of DNC still continued to underestimate the weight of the Bismarck and Tirpitz as late as 1942 even with better information. Some sources indicate the RN did know about the Scharnhost but this was due to Russian information. The Ultimate Enemy: British Intelligence and Nazi Germany 1933-1939 indicates that the Nazis "hoodwinked" the RN about the displacement of all four ships.

Another book I recall reading called the RN's failure to estimate on of the greatest RN intelligence failures of the war.

ETA: Intelligence analyst Roberta Wohlstetter cited the British intelligence failures over the Bismarck in a paper called “The Pleasures of Self-Deception” (The Washington Quarterly, Vol. 2, Number 4, 1979, pp. 54-63). She uses the British intelligence mishandling of the information about Bismarck in the 1930s as an example of British Intelligence failure due to self deception. Wohlstetter wrote that British intelligence found that the dimensions of the Bismarck were such that it was likely to violate treaty restrictions as we now know it did. However, the Germans claimed that the Bismarck displaced only 35,000 tons. She reported argued the obvious implication was that the Germans were lying, violating the treaty and planning for a war against England. She explains this conclusion would require the British to greatly increase defense spending—something they were loath to do.
Gun pits?

Heck, the B and T between them were as much tonnage as Germany was allowed. They cheated, the Brits knew, but didn't complain...too much.
 
Also, regarding what to build instead of the OTL CVs, how about two of those 20,000 ton battlecruisers with 6 280mm guns (P class), is there anything good in that idea?

It was going to be one Bismarck and one Improved Leipzig class light cruiser instead of them.

However, I'm now thinking of moving the POD forward from 1933 to 1928 and have 6 Deutschland class laid down 1929-33 instead of 3. They would not be breaking the Treaty of Versailles as all 8 of their pre-dreadnoughts were over age. Which begs the question why didn't they do that IOTL when they built most of the cruisers and destroyers that they were allowed to? The probable answer was that they were too expensive. Therefore I might have to sacrifice the cruisers Leipzig and Nurnburg to offset the cost.

If they had done that the Nazis might inherit a German armaments industry with the capacity to build double the quantities of battleship fire control equipment and gun turrets.

However, it also means that there would only be enough tonnage under the Anglo-German Naval Agreement to build Bismarck and Tirpitz. Therefore I would concentrate the resources used on the 2 aircraft carriers IOTL on accelerating the Bismarck and Tirpitz. Both were completed about a year late IOTL. If they had been completed on time Bismarck would have been operational in time to take part in the Norwegian Campaign and Tirpitz for the sea mammal.
 
AFAIK the Germans began the development of radar several years before the British. But, the British had caught up by 1939 and during the war would forge ahead. That is at least in the application of radar if not the quality of the equipment.

Is the above statement is correct? If the statement is correct could the Germans have maintained their lead?

The British official history on the design and development of weapons includes a chapter on radar. It says that the progress made up to 1939 was remarkable. However, it also says that even more progress could have been made had the money been available. It laments that the money actually was available, but for reasons that seemed good at the time it wasn't spent.

Therefore:

-could the Germans have made more progress with their radar programme had they put more money into it?
-could this be done without damaging their other weapons programmes? AFAIK the answer is yes, because the electronics industry didn't need the same types of labour and raw materials as the heavy engineering sector so it doesn't mean less guns and butter for better radar.

Or in a rare example of inter-service cooperation could the branches of the Wehrmacht conduct a joint radar research programme to avoid duplications of effort? E.g. AFAIK the Luftwaffe developed the PPI, but the Kriegsmarine didn't use it because they didn't know about it.

ITTL I want the Germans warships of September 1939 to be fitted with radar sets that were as effective as those fitted to British warships in September 1942. Meanwhile I want the torpedo-bombers and general reconnaissance aircraft fitted with a 50cm ASV radar.

Any thoughts on the above before I do the rewrite?
 
Any thoughts on the above before I do the rewrite?

A lot of this is used in Zweites Buch rewrite. Its entirely possible, but you'll need a good reason for why the Germans see the light ITTL or you'll soon suffer the pretty harsh criticism I receive.
 
-could this be done without damaging their other weapons programmes? AFAIK the answer is yes, because the electronics industry didn't need the same types of labour and raw materials as the heavy engineering sector so it doesn't mean less guns and butter for better radar.
Really not sure as a lot of the electronic industries (in UK as well) only got built in the 30s so you need to pick from building/refurbishing weapon factories or electronic factories (as well as tank/trucks/aircraft factories) and since in OTL Germany ran rearmament at near full steam building or buying more will lead to problems, what's the use of good KM radars if lack of tank radios means an unsuccessful BofF and you are trapped in a mined north sea....

I would add that IMO good inter service cooperation is almost always ASB no matter what nation at least pre war and especially for Nazis :p.
 
AFAIK the Germans began the development of radar several years before the British. However, but by 1939 the British had caught up and over the course of the war would forge ahead. That is at least in the application of radar if not the quality of the sets.

could the Germans have made more progress with their radar programme had they put more money into it? And could this be done without damaging their other weapons programmes? AFAIK the answer is yes, because the electronics industry didn't need the same types of labour and raw materials as the heavy engineering sector so it doesn't mean less guns and butter for better radar.

Any thoughts on the above before I do the rewrite?

believe you are exploring a larger battleship program but IMO the radar program, developed fully (and earlier) could benefit the smaller ships even more and have been an almost stealth program?

radar-directed torpedo boats and fast attack boats. fleet of minelayers protected by AA ships and planes.
 
believe you are exploring a larger battleship program but IMO the radar program, developed fully (and earlier) could benefit the smaller ships even more and have been an almost stealth program?

radar-directed torpedo boats and fast attack boats. fleet of minelayers protected by AA ships and planes.

Briefly the Germans wasted considerable shipbuilding resources on 2 aircraft carriers that were never completed and were likely to have been poor warships if they had been. What I was going to do was lay down another pair of Bismarck class battleships instead, which the Germans were entitled to do under the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, plus a more sensible building policy for cruisers and destroyers.

However, now I envisage Germany building another 3 panzerschiffen in the first half of the 1930s. All 8 pre-dreadnoughts retained under the Treaty of Versailles could legally be replaced because they were over 20 years old by 1930 and I don't know of any industrial of financial impediment that would prevent it. That would take up half the spare tonnage left after Bismarck and Tirpitz under the AGNG so no I intend to use the resources released by not building the aircraft carriers to reduce the overloading of the German warship building industry that occurred 1935-40 IOTL.

The improved radar was to make the German surface fleet more effective in 1939-42. That is a better search radar to find merchantmen and avoid warships, plus more a more accurate gunnery radar for surface actions. E.g. what if Graff Zeppelin had been fitted with a more accurate and more robust gunnery radar at the Battle of the River Plate?
 

NoMommsen

Donor
That is a better search radar to find merchantmen and avoid warships, plus more a more accurate gunnery radar for surface actions. E.g. what if Graff Zeppelin had been fitted with a more accurate and more robust gunnery radar at the Battle of the River Plate?
I am sure you mean "Graf Spee" ...

If the radar would have been "good enough" to give better data about ship size, Langsdorff might had tried to avoid fight at all, since he first thought he had to deal only with one cruiser and two destroyers on escort duty.

Other than that, maybe opening fire earlier, taking out Exteter early enough not to get the hit that disabled its fuel system.
Some more hits on Achilles and Ajax maybe, which would then disengage using their better speed but would maybe still try to keep contact with Graf Spee until Force H (HMS Renown, HMS Ark Royal) could do the job.
 
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The improved radar was to make the German surface fleet more effective in 1939-42. That is a better search radar to find merchantmen and avoid warships, plus more a more accurate gunnery radar for surface actions.

my understanding the KM had enough to equip twice the raiders IOTL, my scenario has always been to include stronger diesel engines but radar on those would have been effective.

as well the FW-200 Condor

the KM also had planned class of minelayers (approx. 6,000 tonnes) to carry 400 mines at (approx.) 26kts., they could have laid mines and directed S-boats if equipped with radar.
 
I am sure you mean "Graf Spee" ...

If the radar would have been "good enough" to give better data about ship size, Langsdorff might had tried to avoid fight at all, since he first thought he had to deal only with one cruiser and two destroyers on escort duty.

Sorry, yes I did.
 
IN hindsight an ioperational BB and 3 cruisers might be a good deal compared to non operational ships.

I am not a ffan of German carriers, so I won't comment on "Hindenburg"

THE cruisers are a different. THE difference in battle value of 6"-gunned light cruisers and 8"er heavy cruisers is too big. 3 Hippers would probably be more effective than 6 enlarged Nürnbergs (M, N, O would have been comparable to otehr light cruisers, faster but more lightly armored...)
IMO, the Admiral Hipper class were one of the worst CAs of WW2.

At 18,500 tons (full) the Hippers were one of the largest CAs, but carried no more guns than an equally fast 14,000 ton (full) County class. Meanwhile a 37 knot, 11,000 ton (full) Mogami class could field two additional 8" guns. IMO the Hippers were a poor use of resources. Instead of allocating 80,000 tons to build the five 16K (std) Hippers, the Germans could have got seven or eight equivalents of the RN's York-class (10,000 tons full, 6x8", 32.5 knots, 10,000 mile range).
 
IMO, the Admiral Hipper class were one of the worst CAs of WW2.

At 18,500 tons (full) the Hippers were one of the largest CAs, but carried no more guns than an equally fast 14,000 ton (full) County class. Meanwhile a 37 knot, 11,000 ton (full) Mogami class could field two additional 8" guns. IMO the Hippers were a poor use of resources. Instead of allocating 80,000 tons to build the five 16K (std) Hippers, the Germans could have got seven or eight equivalents of the RN's York-class (10,000 tons full, 6x8", 32.5 knots, 10,000 mile range).
They are not as experienced in ship design as the US/UK/Japan, so will have a harder time fitting as much in a given amount of tonnage compared to them. So of course their cruisers are not as efficient

The Mogami's only made 37 knots in their original configuration, which was dangerously weak (cracks appeared after gunfire) and unstable, they made 34.5 after they got fixed and ended up over 13,500 tons. They also had much less armor than the Hippers (thicker belt yes, but much thinner deck and turret armor), less damage resistant, less AA and were not so good sea-boats (Whereas the Hippers were above average in that regard), so they are not as much better as you say

I would say 5 Hippers are better for Germany than 7-8 York class equivalents. Britain wanted lots of smaller cruisers to manage their huge empire. Germany has no Empire, and would be using their cruisers as raiders, so building tougher ships that are more likely to get home is important. They are also limited by available building slips, they may not be able to build any more cruisers anyways, so may as well build the best they could
 
Plausibility Check

I'm doing the re-write. There is a major difference from the previous one version because the Germans build 6 pocket battleships instead of 3. All of the 8 pre-dreadnoughts retained in 1919 were over 20 years of age by 1930 so they were not breaking the Treaty of Versailles. The problem is the extra cost, but I thought the Weimar Government could justify it as an unemployment relief measure.

However, the purpose of this post is to ask if building 3 extra panzerschiffen would increase Germany's capacity to build large warships, i.e.

Building 6 panzerschiffen over the same period of time as the 3 ships of the real world increased Germany's capacity to build large warships, because double the number of heavy guns, gun mountings (so more gun pits) and fire control equipment were needed. It also required an increase in Germany's armour making capacity. As a result the main armament for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau was completed sooner, which in turn had a knock on effect on Bismarck and Tirpitz. Although the A.G.N.A. only gave Germany enough tonnage to build 2 Bismarcks in 1935, the Kriegsmarine ordered the armament and fire control equipment for 4 ships so that additional ships could be built quickly at short notice.
Is the above plausible?
 
PS I also need names for the 3 extra panzerschiffen. I thought of Souchon and Caprivi might be suitable. Any suggestions for the third?
 
Or maybe the Germans should've just fielded a few Gruppe of dedicated, purpose-built, short- to medium-ranged anti shipping aircraft, and put more focus on guided air-to-surface weapons...
 
Or maybe the Germans should've just fielded a few Gruppe of dedicated, purpose-built, short- to medium-ranged anti shipping aircraft, and put more focus on guided air-to-surface weapons...

That's not an option before 1933 when the 3 extra Panzerschiffen were ordered because Germany wasn't allowed an air force. However, as well as laying down 2 extra Bismarck class battleships in place of Graff Zeppelin and Aircraft Carrier B, the Germans also double the maritime element of the Luftwaffe between 1933 and 1939, plus they develop and effective air launched torpedo or buy them from Italy or Japan.
 
IMHO, it is almost impossible to give The German Navy better sea going radar by the start of the war because the only way to get this is to change the entire modus operandi of the Nazi regime! Many things hampered radar development in Nazi Germany:- these include fragmentation of effort (each service going at it separately and refusing to share developments) Reluctance to spend time and money on what was perceived as a purely defensive technology and the suppression of scientists who were not desirably Arian. there are far more reasons than these few examples. The development of Radar in Britain between new year 1935 and the end of 1940 was incredible more for the sheer scale of what was achieved than the technology used. The watch word of the scientists working on radar was "good enough tomorrow" in other words they were not trying to stretch the technological boundaries to provide and "uber solution" they concentrated on getting a good enough solution in service as quickly as possible. From the earliest days of British Radar research there was close co-operation between the scientific and service communities except the RN who kept up their own separate research at the Portsmouth Wireless School until the summer of 1937. This research was focused on gunnery ranging radar (as was the German research at that time) and this delay in integrating with the rest of the research at Bewedsley Manor has been seen as a principle impediment to the earlier deployment of air search, surface search and other ship born systems. I digress slightly but the point is that weapons development is about more than the technology, it is about the political, social, scientific and financial environment in which it is undertaken.
 
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