More Axis Countries?

[zoomar]

Realistic possibilities given a coup or no coup here and there?

France (Vichy)
Spain
Turkey
Yugoslavia

Far less realistic possibilities but not absolutely impossible

Iraq (too hard for any Axis-leaning non-European nation to join the Axis without immediate invasion by Britain or US)
Argentina (ditto)
Switzerland (surrounded and unhappily coopted by Axis)
Sweden (ditto)

I don't see any in the Pacific/Asia. Everybody there was already in the war one way or another by virtue of being a possession, protectorate, or lackey of the western powers or Japan. Japan could have created a fictional "ally" or two out of Indochina, Indonesia, or the Philippines, I suppose, but this really would just be a change in colonial rule, not a true ally.

 

[Morty Vicar]

There was some OTL diplomacy between the Nazis and some Muslims in Bosnia and elsewhere, is there any way to get a major muslim leader to declare a fatwah in support of the Axis, and to some extent unite muslims in support of the Axis? This will majorly fuck with the UK in India, the middle east, north africa and east asia, the US in the Phillipines.

 

[Binky the Clown]

The main reason Spain didn't join the Axis was because Hitler was unable to guarantee Spanish control of Morocco. Have Hitler agree to hand Morocco over or have Franco decide to take the Mussolini approach and join the Axis in the hope that Hitler will be willing to grant him his demands at the peace table.

 

[LHB]

Turkey is always brought up, and it is plausible; Turkey in the Middle Eastern Campaign would have helped Rommel by forcing the British to fight two fronts, and with Turkish forces threatening the Caucasus, Germany could have put more troops to attack Russia.

Turkey would require someone other than Attaturk being in charge after the end of WWI. After failing to achieve an alliance with Britain in the wake of Munich the Turkish government opted for total neutrality. Another major element is the fact that the US government purchased nearly all of Turkey's stockpiles in chromium, giving another major economic incentive not to touch the Axis with a ten foot pole.

 

[usertron2020]

There was some OTL diplomacy between the Nazis and some Muslims in Bosnia and elsewhere, is there any way to get a major muslim leader to declare a fatwah in support of the Axis, and to some extent unite muslims in support of the Axis? This will majorly fuck with the UK in India, the middle east, north africa and east asia, the US in the Phillipines.

Possibly, except in the case of the Philippines. Unenlightened Japanese rule there combined with the already existent Philippine Independence scheduled for July 4th, 1946 made this pretty much a non-starter.

EDIT: The British were in a better position than the other colonial powers, in that previous promises were made of negotiation with and recognition of (implied, at least) the Congress Party and the Muslim League. Their biggest problem were all the broken promises after World War One. But at least they were in better shape than the French and Dutch, who never made any promises to the locals at all.

The main reason Spain didn't join the Axis was because Hitler was unable to guarantee Spanish control of Morocco. Have Hitler agree to hand Morocco over or have Franco decide to take the Mussolini approach and join the Axis in the hope that Hitler will be willing to grant him his demands at the peace table.

Only possible in an ATL in which France refuses to go Vichy, but rather Fights On. Otherwise, Hitler is throwing Vichy to the Falangist wolves and basically handing the French Empire over to De Gaulle.

 

[thaddeus]

The main reason Spain didn't join the Axis was because Hitler was unable to guarantee Spanish control of Morocco. Have Hitler agree to hand Morocco over or have Franco decide to take the Mussolini approach and join the Axis in the hope that Hitler will be willing to grant him his demands at the peace table.

Only possible in an ATL in which France refuses to go Vichy, but rather Fights On. Otherwise, Hitler is throwing Vichy to the Falangist wolves and basically handing the French Empire over to De Gaulle.

Germany COULD have withdrawn from more of France (especially Paris would enhance the Vichy regime?) in return for French protectorate of Morocco http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...cco#mediaviewer/File:Morocco_Protectorate.svg being turned over to Spain.

the Vichy regime might view this as a way to enlist Spain to perform actions that otherwise THEY would be pressured to take? (provide staging area for invasion of Gibraltar, u-boats bases for the Atlantic)

 

[usertron2020]

Germany COULD have withdrawn from more of France (especially Paris would enhance the Vichy regime?) in return for French protectorate of Morocco http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...cco#mediaviewer/File:Morocco_Protectorate.svg being turned over to Spain.

the Vichy regime might view this as a way to enlist Spain to perform actions that otherwise THEY would be pressured to take? (provide staging area for invasion of Gibraltar, u-boats bases for the Atlantic)

Paris was the Jewel in the Crown of the Nazi Empire. NOBODY in Hitler's elite would ever have dared to make such a suggestion. Besides, the Nazis LOVED being able to vacation in Paris, which they couldn't do with only untrustworthy Vichyite troops protecting them.

Besides the LOCs for Northern France have the main rail lines everywhere in and west of Le Havre coming through Paris. In the event of an invasion of France (Roundup-43 or Overlord-44), the Germans would be inviting the Allies to invade Western France at Normandy as OTL. But with no German garrisons or mobile divisions or fortifications west of the region of Pas-de-Calais!

Even if Hitler could trust, say, a French dictatorship under Admiral Darlan, he could NEVER trust the French People enough to leave open such a horrendous (for him!) strategic opportunity for the Allies. Mass surrender/defections by the Vichyites in Normandy on D-Day, and the Allies breakout of hedgerow country and liberate Paris no later than D+45.

 

[NKVD]

Hitler's personal admiration for Islam could have encouraged patriot rebellions in Iraq, Syria and Palestine.

Darkly hilarious fact: a Jewish ultra-nationalist terrorist group in Palestine, Lehi/the Stern Gang, sought an alliance with Nazi Germany. I think Irgun, their parent organization, had a similar interest as well, but I'm not sure.

 

[Morty Vicar]

Darkly hilarious fact: a Jewish ultra-nationalist terrorist group in Palestine, Lehi/the Stern Gang, sought an alliance with Nazi Germany. I think Irgun, their parent organization, had a similar interest as well, but I'm not sure.

I heard some Zionists in Germany wanted Hitler to force jews to emigrate to Israel because they didn't have enough people to actually start a colony, that may just be one of those antisemitic conspiracy theories though.

 

[usertron2020]

Some Zionists in Germany wanted Hitler to force jews to emigrate to Israel because they didn't have enough people to actually start a colony I heard, that may just be one of those antisemitic conspiracy theories though.

Indeed, another way to "blame the Jews" for the Nazi Holocaust. The closest this comes to fact is early 20th century anti-semitic chit-chat about anti-semites actually supporting the mass emigration of Europe's Jews to Palestine. But it never could go anywhere since anti-semites would of course never open their own wallets to pay for such a reverse diaspora.

 

[thaddeus]

Germany COULD have withdrawn from more of France (especially Paris would enhance the Vichy regime?) in return for French protectorate of Morocco http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...cco#mediaviewer/File:Morocco_Protectorate.svg being turned over to Spain.

the Vichy regime might view this as a way to enlist Spain to perform actions that otherwise THEY would be pressured to take? (provide staging area for invasion of Gibraltar, u-boats bases for the Atlantic)

Paris was the Jewel in the Crown of the Nazi Empire. NOBODY in Hitler's elite would ever have dared to make such a suggestion. Besides, the Nazis LOVED being able to vacation in Paris, which they couldn't do with only untrustworthy Vichyite troops protecting them.

Besides the LOCs for Northern France have the main rail lines everywhere in and west of Le Havre coming through Paris. In the event of an invasion of France (Roundup-43 or Overlord-44), the Germans would be inviting the Allies to invade Western France at Normandy as OTL. But with no German garrisons or mobile divisions or fortifications west of the region of Pas-de-Calais!

Even if Hitler could trust, say, a French dictatorship under Admiral Darlan, he could NEVER trust the French People enough to leave open such a horrendous (for him!) strategic opportunity for the Allies. Mass surrender/defections by the Vichyites in Normandy on D-Day, and the Allies breakout of hedgerow country and liberate Paris no later than D+45.

well of course they would not have to withdraw all military forces overnight, but they could allow the Vichy regime to operate out of Paris. (and the timeframe was 1940 -1941 so any invasion of the continent would have been unthinkable at that point)

if they could enlist Spain by gaining them control over Morocco and enhance the Vichy by letting them pose in Paris?

(and of course they have Gibraltar and u-boat bases and airfields)

 

[Simreeve]

Taking this message literally, Tibet and Sikkim quickly sign an alliance with Tribhuwan Bir Bikram Shah (Nepal) and Jigme Wangchuck (Bhutan). This alliance, called Himalayan Co-Prosperity Sphere, is meant to deter the influences of Great Britain, Russia and China.

Sikkhim at that point is firmly under British/Indian influence, and Bhutan quite effectively so... and Nepal was quick to decide IOTL that the British had been better neighbours than could be expected of either the Japanese of the Germans.


Some of the other suggestions in this thread are actually ideas that get raised -- and dismissed -- quite regularly in this forum.
Spain was too dependent on imports of food & fuel, which the Allies could have blocked and the Axis couldn't have replaced.
Argentina's economy depended on exports to Allied nations, which couldn't have been redirected to the Axis because of "minor" details called the RN and the USN... and it had not-so-friendly neighbours who'd probably have been relatively quick to join the Allies in overthrowing its hypothetical Axis [and geographically isolated] regime.
Turkey also had various good reasons for not joining the Axis.

 

[Morty Vicar]

Sikkhim at that point is firmly under British/Indian influence, and Bhutan quite effectively so... and Nepal was quick to decide IOTL that the British had been better neighbours than could be expected of either the Japanese of the Germans.


Some of the other suggestions in this thread are actually ideas that get raised -- and dismissed -- quite regularly in this forum.
Spain was too dependent on imports of food & fuel, which the Allies could have blocked and the Axis couldn't have replaced.
Argentina's economy depended on exports to Allied nations, which couldn't have been redirected to the Axis because of "minor" details called the RN and the USN... and it had not-so-friendly neighbours who'd probably have been relatively quick to join the Allies in overthrowing its hypothetical Axis [and geographically isolated] regime.
Turkey also had various good reasons for not joining the Axis.

What about later in the war though? As the Axis were at their peak in the war, and victory seemed inevitable, will any of those coutnries join, if nothing else to avoid occupation?

 

[usertron2020]

What about later in the war though? As the Axis were at their peak in the war, and victory seemed inevitable, will any of those coutnries join, if nothing else to avoid occupation?

"Joining later in the War with the Axis doing better" generally means one of two things going successfully, neither very credible as ideas, if at all:

Unspeakable Seamammal

Barbarossa, i.e. taking Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow

Mmmm...nope

 

[usertron2020]

well of course they would not have to withdraw all military forces overnight, but they could allow the Vichy regime to operate out of Paris. (and the timeframe was 1940 -1941 so any invasion of the continent would have been unthinkable at that point)

if they could enlist Spain by gaining them control over Morocco and enhance the Vichy by letting them pose in Paris?

(and of course they have Gibraltar and u-boat bases and airfields)

If Vichy's government is moved to a German-occupied Paris, it will simply remove the last fig leaf of cover regarding their status as complete Nazi puppets, no different than Norway's Quisling. The pace of French Empire colonies turning to De Gaulle goes from glacial to a walk to a light run to a hard sprint to a mad rush to a bloody stampede!

 

[Imladrik]

well of course they would not have to withdraw all military forces overnight, but they could allow the Vichy regime to operate out of Paris. (and the timeframe was 1940 -1941 so any invasion of the continent would have been unthinkable at that point)

if they could enlist Spain by gaining them control over Morocco and enhance the Vichy by letting them pose in Paris?

(and of course they have Gibraltar and u-boat bases and airfields)

No. The Resident General in Morroco, General Nogues, actaully threatened to continue the fight if the armistice didn't left the French fleet and the French Empire alone. He was supported by the Governor of Algeria, the Resident General in Tunisia, the commander of the Forces in Djibouti, in the Levant and in Indochina. Trying to give Morocco to Spain would mean losing the French empire and the French fleet, and the axis wouldn't have the capacity to fight on three fronts (Spanish Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt) in North Africa.

 

[Mike D]

Portugal to save itself from German occupation IF Spain has joined the Axis.

They've been allied to England/the UK since the 1370s, I reckon that joining the Axis would be the very last resort for them. I think a BEF Mk II landing in Lisbon would probably be more likely.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

They've been allied to England/the UK since the 1370s, I reckon that joining the Axis would be the very last resort for them. I think a BEF Mk II landing in Lisbon would probably be more likely.

Yeah, I find it very unlikely that Portugal would have joined the Axis.

 

[thaddeus]

well of course they would not have to withdraw all military forces overnight, but they could allow the Vichy regime to operate out of Paris. (and the timeframe was 1940 -1941 so any invasion of the continent would have been unthinkable at that point)

if they could enlist Spain by gaining them control over Morocco and enhance the Vichy by letting them pose in Paris?

(and of course they have Gibraltar and u-boat bases and airfields)

If Vichy's government is moved to a German-occupied Paris, it will simply remove the last fig leaf of cover regarding their status as complete Nazi puppets, no different than Norway's Quisling. The pace of French Empire colonies turning to De Gaulle goes from glacial to a walk to a light run to a hard sprint to a mad rush to a bloody stampede!

and De Gaulle joins all the big three meetings with his own demands? that actually makes what I suggested sound better.

 

[Namayan]

There was some OTL diplomacy between the Nazis and some Muslims in Bosnia and elsewhere, is there any way to get a major muslim leader to declare a fatwah in support of the Axis, and to some extent unite muslims in support of the Axis? This will majorly fuck with the UK in India, the middle east, north africa and east asia, the US in the Phillipines.

Muslims in the Philippines are minorities even in those times. So, they had no say with what side Philippines will be.