More Airlift at Arnhem

Sior

Banned
The Light Tank Mk VIII, aka. the Harry Hopkins, was too large to be carried by Hamilcar gliders so it was effectively non transportable by air. The Mk VII Tetrarch was the largest light tank that would fit. Between the possibility of taking Tetrarchs or Humber/Coventry armoured cars under 6th Airborne Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment or more 6-pounder and 17-pounder anti-tank guns under 1st Airlanding Anti-Tank Battery Royal Artillery like they actually did I think I'd probably go for more guns myself.

GB-TetrarchandHamilcar.jpg

Too big indeed? I don't think so!

Well I did give you thirty odd extra gliders straight off the bat, IIRC the reason Browning and his HQ came in that way was because not all of them were fully parachute trained since it hadn't been envisaged as a front line unit. Kind of says everything about their participation right there. :) But getting back to your main points it does seem to be that up until they reached the Nijmegen bridge that XXX Corps was on time, earlier delays having been made up. If 82nd Airborne Division are able to take the Nijmegen bridge straight after landing whilst IIRC it was still fairly lightly defended and hold both ends that means Guards Armoured Division won't have to help them do the job when they arrive but can instead get on with reaching Arnhem which they look like having a pretty decent chance of reaching on schedule.
Too big indeed? I don't think so! Carry capacity was 8 tons which was the weight of a Harry Hopkins, the Tetrarch was a ton lighter!
 
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[SNIP PICTURE]

Too big indeed? I don't think so! Carry capacity was 8 tons which was the weight of a Harry Hopkins, the Tetrarch was a ton lighter!
Err, you do realise that picture is apparently of a Tetrarch coming out of a Hamilcar don't you? As for too big as far as I'm aware yes it was, I'm not talking about weight but physical dimensions. Granted I'm having to work from internet sources here but they all seem to pretty much agree that the cargo compartment for the Hamilcar was 7 feet 10.5 inches wide, fine for the Tetrarch if a bit of a squeeze at 7 feet 7 inches wide, but somewhat more problematic for the Harry Hopkins at 8 feet 8 inches wide. If I'm wrong however I'll gladly be corrected.
 
With more air transport, that means 1st British lands with its Jeeps & AT, too, no? Which means they can hold more readily. It also means they get more ammo supply as they hold, doesn't it?

So the delay in XXX Corps arriving is less critical...

Now, having them find the ferry across the river would still be good, but it's looking less fatal if they don't.
 
Okay an update on the airlift that I mentioned Browning using to transport himself and his HQ out, seems as though they used 34 Horsa and 4 Hadrian gliders. The Horsas were apparently originally meant for the 2nd Battalion South Staffordshire Regiment but they had to give them up. I've also run across some mentions of the American 878th Engineer Battalion that was meant to fly in with their bulldozers, cranes, graders and sundry equipment via 10 Horsa gliders alongside the 1st Airborne to help construct a forward airfield at landing site W. Some sources seem to say that the idea was cancelled before the operation started whilst others that it only didn't go ahead as things happened due to events on the ground so I don't know. Anyway that's a possible 44 extra Horsa and 4 Hadrian gliders that you might be able to find something to do with.
 
The extra details being posted seems to confirm that the British 1st Airborne will be able to hold their position until XXX Corps arrives and crosses the Rhine. Then ongoing logistical constraints prevent them being able to encircle the Ruhr.

So what happens next?

In late November two things happen of importance. The first is that Allies clear the Scheldt Estuary. The second is that the US 6th Army Group reaches the Upper Rhine and can likely cross. Does this encourage Eisenhower to launch and Allied winter offensive since we have two large Allied formations across the Rhine along with a much improved supply situation? Or do the Western Allies stay put and wait until spring?

Despite Eisenhower's general conservatism, it seems to me that if Schedlt is clear and you have large forces across the Rhine in both the north and south, that you push on.

Anyone agree, disagree, have different ideas?
 


Would including Harry Hopkins light tanks in Hamilcar gliders have helped?

Well, it gives the Airborne forces a force which can secure the bridges quickly, but they'll get murdered by any real armoured force, and they're likely not up to much on the defensive. Given the choice, I think more AT/Artillery might have been the better decision.
 
The extra details being posted seems to confirm that the British 1st Airborne will be able to hold their position until XXX Corps arrives and crosses the Rhine. Then ongoing logistical constraints prevent them being able to encircle the Ruhr. So what happens next?
I'm generally in the camp of their starting to hit their logistical limit by the time they reach Arnhem so I think the main thing they'll do will be move up enough forces to solidly defend the forward bridgehead and offer a viable threat, secure the roads and then dig in for the time being until Antwerp comes on line as a nearer port. The whole Allied thinking from Eisenhower on down was that the Germans were collapsing and one big push would see them collapse and surrendering en masse, when that doesn't happen as illustrated by the Germans actions it's time to reconsider things.

This does however lead to rather a lot of Germans still being in the rest of the Netherlands which whilst not likely to be launching offensive operations of their own still have to be taken into account. For the Allies it's good as for any future operations crossing the Rhine the Germans as well as having to counter amphibious crossings will also have to split their resources even more and keep half an eye on the north to make sure trouble doesn't come down from up there. If it gets to late November I could see this pushing Hitler to commence Operation Watch on the Rhine the same time as our timeline or perhaps even a bit earlier. The, granted demented, reasoning of smashing the new Allied supply hub, taking the stores for themselves, cutting off the Commonwealth forces to the north and inflicting a massive psychological blow against the Allies all still track. If anything it might be felt even more imperative since it looks like the Allies have a viable land route to the Ruhr.
 
Simon, what do you think of the Allied plans in November? The Canadians cleared the Scheldt earlier that month, and the first convoy arrived in Antwerp on November 28. I think Patch's US 7th Army reaches Satrsbourg on November 22 and captures the Kehl Bridge intact. With both British and American armies able to cross the Rhine, do you think Ike gives the go? Or does he say no and prefer to slog it through like he did IOTL?

All those German divisions placed around the Ardennes could find themselves cut off from supplies even before they launch their attack.
 
I'd have to double check but I seem to remember that whilst shipments to Amsterdam were useful, for a while after the port opened the main problem became the transportation network to then carry it on to where it was needed - to the extent that large stockpiles started building up so they had to lower the amount of supplies coming in until they could get it sorted. If that's the case then at a guess, it's been an age since I read about all this stuff, I'd say Eisenhower holds off and then we run into Operation Watch on the Rhine.
 
Instead of dropping the divisions - 101st, 82nd, and 1st Br Airborne (plus the Poles). I would drop them 1st Br ABN, 101st and 82nd. Plus on Day 2, I would bring in Ridgeway's XVIII ABN Corps
 
I'd have to double check but I seem to remember that whilst shipments to Amsterdam were useful, for a while after the port opened the main problem became the transportation network to then carry it on to where it was needed - to the extent that large stockpiles started building up so they had to lower the amount of supplies coming in until they could get it sorted. If that's the case then at a guess, it's been an age since I read about all this stuff, I'd say Eisenhower holds off and then we run into Operation Watch on the Rhine.

Ruppenthal 'Logistics in Overlord' discusses this, describing the tonnages of supplies involved. The first convoy started unloading on or about 24 November and the unloading of military supplies was halted around 19 December. Antwerp was a "through port", set up for shipping out the goods directly. Its dry storage or warehouse space was relatively small compared to the size of the dock/discharge capability.

The Belgian railroads and canals were still in very bad condition in November and the priority cargo unloaded in Antwerp was material & equipment for restoring the transportation. Sending that material across France from the operating ports proved impractical as the French transportation system had been destroyed as well.

To support a entire US or British army in a full blown offensive required a minimum of 900 tons per day per division HQ in the army. That includes the overhead of corps/army units, and forward based tactical airforces. By December the Allied supply at the front was only back up to around 700-800 tons per division slice per day, and there was a very limited reserve in the forward depots. Which limited the attack capability. The railroads were still in rough shape and there was a very limited reserve of all material at the front. The second problem limiting any Allied offensive is as soon as the army advance more than 80 to 120 kilometers the transportation problem kicks in again. A reserve of automotive and rail road reconstruction material had to be built up at the front as well.
 
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That's the bunny. Whilst not being able to carry out an offensive based solely on supplies from Amsterdam it must have still been a welcome relief on the supply line going all the way back to Normandy. Carl could you be kind enough to check and see when Antwerp finally managed to achieve the minimum of 900 tons per Division level or more than that so they could also build up some reserves in the forward areas? Thanks.
 
I have a half formulated mini-TL about a "successful" Market Garden. Before anybody jumps on me, I put the quote marks there for a reason. Even with a vast array of changes in both landing sites and who is dropped when, it will only be successful to a very limited degree.

Market Garden was the wrong target, at the wrong time. Antwerp was so much more important than Arnhem, as all the discussion of logistics on this thread shows. If there was to be an attempt to bounce the Rhine, it should not have been attempted until after the Scheldt was cleared, and supplies coming in. Also, Wesel* seems a more feasible target for any such jump.

A lot of the problems with the Airborne contingent can be worked around, providing somebody really works hard enough in Allied Airborne Army HQ. The thing really comes unstuck when we get to XXX Corps. Ignoring the fact that Horrocks was run into the ground before the Operation had begun, the whole idea of sending an entire Army Corps on a headlong dash through mile after mile of enemy territory on a single carriageway road is sheer lunacy.

As far as the SS-Panzer Divisions, the British did know about it,as others have said. An Intelligence Officer called Urquhart (no relation to the one commanding 1st Airborne) was forcibly sent on sick leave because he kept bringing this rather inconvenient fact to Browning's attention.

*As well as being the site for Operation Varsity, I've seen one source claim it was Monty's intiial choice for what became Market Garden, but the air planners vetoed it. I'll try and check the source, as he's a bit of a Monty apologist, but I think he cited somebody else...


For a much more sensible idea, Cook did a post/TL called Foregoing Market Garden, where Roberts seizes the canal upon reaching Antwerp and seals the Beveland. The follow up operations are aimed at Walcheren and opening Antwerp to shipping, instead of tearing across the Dutch countryside.


EDIT: Here it is.
 
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Sior

Banned
In the familiar story of Arnhem the role of 1st Abn Recce Sqn is less well known. Under command of Maj Freddie Gough, the squadron, equipped with jeeps armed with Vickers K-guns, was to carry out a coup de main strike to seize Arnhem Bridge and hold it until the division’s main body arrived. Gough considered this a misuse of his squadron, and believed that his three troops ought to precede each element of the division as they advanced from the DZs/LZs towards Arnhem, in true Recce fashion: in this way the best approach might be identified. However, Gough was obliged to conform to the flawed divisional plan, and to deploy the squadron as a light strike force. To overcome the tactical drawbacks that he anticipated, Gough asked for twin Vickers mountings for his jeeps, and for three Hamilcar gliders to carry a reinforcing troop of Tetrarch light tanks of 6 Abn Armd Reece; neither request was granted.
 
In the familiar story of Arnhem the role of 1st Abn Recce Sqn is less well known. Under command of Maj Freddie Gough, the squadron, equipped with jeeps armed with Vickers K-guns, was to carry out a coup de main strike to seize Arnhem Bridge and hold it until the division’s main body arrived. Gough considered this a misuse of his squadron, and believed that his three troops ought to precede each element of the division as they advanced from the DZs/LZs towards Arnhem, in true Recce fashion: in this way the best approach might be identified. However, Gough was obliged to conform to the flawed divisional plan, and to deploy the squadron as a light strike force. To overcome the tactical drawbacks that he anticipated, Gough asked for twin Vickers mountings for his jeeps, and for three Hamilcar gliders to carry a reinforcing troop of Tetrarch light tanks of 6 Abn Armd Reece; neither request was granted.
If Gough had managed to get his squad used correctly, things might have changed. Or, if he'd stuck to the plan and got his arse in gear, it might have been of more use. I'll try to look up the timings in a book stashed in a box, but Frost managed to get his Battalion of the landing zones so much quicker than Gough's "Rapid Reaction Force", to use a somewhat more modern moniker for the rolw they were being given...
 
My own insane idea for adding more airlift involves using every seaplane and early helicopter that the Allied Airborne Army can get its hands on. Yeah, it won't do much except add more color to the defeat at Arnhem.

Thinking of the 1st Airborne's Recce unit, were they the ones that ran into heavy opposition on a different route than Frost's group?

I think the best plan may have been to drop the 1st Airborne in the same area as one of the US divisions. Or hold one of the parachute divisions in reserve for a drop once XXX Corps gets close to Arnhem.
 
...y. Carl could you be kind enough to check and see when Antwerp finally managed to achieve the minimum of 900 tons per Division level or more than that so they could also build up some reserves in the forward areas? Thanks.

Here is what Ruppenthal has, and a few bits from my notes. It is a thumbnail sketch, which I hope makes sense.

First off Antwerp was captured intact, by the Belgian inhabitants of the city. The German garrison was small, demoralized by the news of the collapse in Normandy, and the fragments of the German armies fleeing past added little to the garrison. I am guessing there was a leadership problem as well. The result was the Belgians were able to arm themselves, and with a handful of British special forces run off the Germans from the critical dock district. Of the 600+ cranes for offloading ships only one or two were damaged. Completely undamaged were the locks to the inner harbor, the pumping stations, the electric power station, telephone exchange. No mines in the harbor basin, no mines in the warehouses, or service buildings. In short the Belgians had a mega harbor in perfect condition ready for the 21st Army Group when the tanks of Horrocks XXX Corps rolled into town on 6th September.

How mega? One magazine article places the nominal peacetime average at 18,000 tons per day. For comparison the same article place The Channel ports as averaging between 4,000 & 6,000 depending on the port, Cherbourg at 8,000, Brest 10,000. Bordeux 6,000. About everything else in reach was placed below 4,000 tons peace time avg intake. The two exceptions were the Marsailles/Toulon group and Rotterdam which were close to the capacity of Antwerp.

These peace time numbers were grossly under what was forced through the ports after the Allies rehabilitated them. Cherbourg went from severely damaged and a few hundred tons per day in early July to 20,000 tons in September & October. That was accomplished by improving harbor navigation, adding cranes, a LST beaching site with paved unloading ramps, and adding a second railroad spur with sidings and a switching or marshalling section. It appears the average for Cherbourg fell off with the advent of bad weather from October and may have fell to 17,000 tons or less per day. The Marsailles port group was similarly boosted to far beyond its typical peacetime average.

I did not see a peacetime capacity for Antwerp in Ruppenthal. He does include the estimated intake the British and US planners arrived at after inspecting the port in September. They put together a tenative plan where the US would draw 25,000 ton and the British 15,000 per day through the port. The portions were adjusted as the port neared operations but the total was not reduced.

Skipping over other changes & estimates the actual intake for the US Army through Antwerp was 10,000 tons daily at the end of the first week of operations = 5 December, and near the end of the 2d week of December hit a 19,000 ton daily intake. Ruppenthal does not have a number for the British in those weeks, but my notes show a quantity very similar to the US intake for a gross of about 37,000 tons per day around 15 December.

The clearance problem is illustrated by the accumulation of 85,000 tons of US Army material in Antwerp by mid December. The expectation had been less than 5,000 tons would remain on any day. The weeks it took to restore minimal railroad traffic, and the inability to restore barge traffic to Liege & Namur or further south created this backlog.

So, to answer the question 37,000 tons/900 = 41 division slices out of 12 & 21 Army Groups. Leaving aside the problems of moving the material the Allies could in theory support over half of 12 & 21 AG from Antwerp in mid December. Of course Eisenhower had by this time signed off on the object of having over 80 Allied divisions, or their equivalent, in the battle zone ASAP.

This transportation problem was similar to that of August/September. When the combined discharge of the Cherbourg group (including small fishing ports) Utah and Omaha beaches and St Malo came in at approximately 35,000 tons or more of US material per day, but only some 15,000 to 20,000 were reaching the forward combat divisions daily. Or about 700 tons per division slice. This included supply to a number of bomber and fighter wings of the US 9th Air Force which displaced to forward airfields in eastern France and Belgium in August, September, and October.

Also, to explain why Ruppenthal is cited so often. His text was written for the US Army Green Books, a multivolume historical text. Ruppenthal was specifically concerned with Logistics, and his material is a summary of a larger body or logistics records and analysis put together as a study aid for revamping the US armies logistics system at some future date. As such it sucks as entertainment. Not at all in the same league as Ambrose, Atkinson, ect... and it lacks the overt agenda of many of the modern historians. But it has lots of numbers and charts, and is as accurate as you will get without going back to the actual US Army logistics records.
 
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No mention at all of the park was made until 1975 when the first limited information about it was revealed and the existence of Colossus wasn't disclosed until 1989!

Montgomery almost blew it by telling the captured Von Thoma at Alamein EVERYTHING about the Axis position from supplies to deployment of troops. Thoma told Liddell Hart after the war that he expected to be interrogated by Monty but instead he got a lecture on the current Axis position.

Luckily Thoma didn't connect any dots.
 
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