Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Planet of Hats, Aug 21, 2016.

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  1. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    Has no idea
    Just remember in this world no banu hilal so the berber are even less arab.
     
  2. Threadmarks: INTERMISSION VII Part II: Extended Mapdate

    Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    As we go into the next chapter, I've been working on my mapmaking skills:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Pralaya Active Member

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    Sep 1, 2019
    YES, YES, WE'RE FINALLY SEEING FLAGS
    One question though, which software did you use? Also, I noticed one minor mistake, between Vic and Girona there is an unnamed city and in the south of Tunisia are three or four of them which automatically makes the map bad, sorry. /s
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019 at 9:47 AM
  4. AceofDens Well-Known Member

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    Free Territory of California
    It's a good looking map, but the Pyrenees incorrect placement below Andorra is bugging me.
     
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  5. HerodotosofBerlin Active Member

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    amazing
     
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  6. Yama951 Well-Known Member

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    Now I wonder if a Kingdom of Taured would pop up or something.
     
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  7. CountDVB Dual Emperor of the Aztech and Maychanical Empires

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    Very awesome flags
     
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  8. dontfearme22 Chicalotlatonti

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    Dec 18, 2013
    Gorgeous work. Beautiful shading as well on those political boundaries. I love the ocean tone too.

    ...There is a competitive chill running up my spine however.
     
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  9. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    I knew a few of those dots would get away from me. :noexpression: It's a living document and I plan to further improve it, so I suspect you'll see it again.

    This was built entirely in Photoshop.
     
  10. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    That santiago is too big, need to be much smaller

    Amazing map buddy, very professional
     
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  11. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    Oct 30, 2014
    I love the amount of cities on the map and their different rankings, it really gives a sense as to where Andalus's populations are concentrated. The contrast between the inland north with a major city every 200 miles or so and the urbanized south with like 6 or 7 in that same span is jarring.

    I can really see the Seville-Cadiz span becoming the basis for a megalopolis by TTL's industrial age, and maybe the whole span from southern *Portugal down to Tangier or even Sale (which I'm guessing has eaten up Rabat for a light snack) could be considered a continuous "Mid-Atlantic" urban sprawl.

    Meanwhile, the north is out of the way for now, and Extremadura/Toledo are probably staying a backwater until railroads are introduced (and even after that, OTL Madrid's high-level manufacturing is probably going to be concentrated further south anyways). But it would be very fun for Lisbon to take after Brittany-- making its own mark on the colonial era as a swashbuckling competitor to Isbili, where the Hajib's spies are few, pirates/smugglers ply their trade and fishermen crowdfund trans-Atlantic voyages. The Ebro, though, might actually rival the Guadalquivir for crafts and industry-- that, plus close contact with Provencia across the border, leaves *Catalonia/Aragon likely to go its own way culturally if not politically. Something like the Glasgow-Edinburgh belt?

    Loving Santiago's flag, and you can't go wrong with classic OTL Navarre (though maybe the origin story for it TTL would have something to do with the reconquest of Viguera or something). Also, the Asmarid Seal-of-Solomon having five points is aesthetic but probably an anachronism-- Morocco under the Marinids seems to have favored an eight-pointed Seal consisting of two squares at 45-degree angles to each other, and Turkish beyliks using the symbol opted for a six-pointed Star-of-David design.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  12. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    There are a bunch of smaller farm communities the Normans founded up there, but by and large, you can even see this when you look at Andalusia today: Leaving aside Madrid, the biggest population density is in Andalusia, Valencia and Catalonia, while the northern provinces are quite a bit less dense. Here you can see the same thing: The biggest clusters are in Andalusia and Valencia. That's in part the climate, but also the legacy of the fact that most of the old Roman, Greek and Carthaginian infrastructure was in the south of Iberia, with Asturias having always been fairly untamed and Gallaecia mainly being exploited as a mine. Andalusia had a huge advantage in the form of being able to exploit those old Greco-Romano-Carthaginian towns, farms, roads and irrigation networks.

    I've been working on improving the map some, enough that I feel comfortable calling this a reasonably final version:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. snassni2 Well-Known Member

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    @Planet of Hats great map and flags. You have made the caliphal banner but don't they have a separate flag for the actual state of Alandalus? How is the Asmarid state called? In OTL Morocco was always called Almaghrib even though the dynasties changed. Is it the same with the asmarid state?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  14. Timeline Junkie Well-Known Member

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    What’s the back story behind the other flags. I know Genoa’s flag is the same as OTL, but why does Navarre have three lions and why does France not use the Fleur-de-Lys and has such a different flag from OTL, but Italy uses a Fleur-de-Lys? The flags are really cool and it would cool to learn the backstory behind them.
     
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  15. Yama951 Well-Known Member

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    Well, ITTL Italy's flag is based on Tuscany's flag which uses the same symbol.
     
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  16. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    France does not use the fleur-de-lis because it seems to be mostly associated with the Capets, and the Capets flamed out on the launchpad in this universe. The cross fleury adopts some of that imagery. It was picked up by the Ingelger monarchs, along with the sun, which calls to mind the Oriflamme and evokes some of the mythologizing around Charlemagne's time.

    Navarre uses not just three lions, but three lions in the style of Gascony, which was brought in during the brief union of Aquitaine and Pamplona under Sancha and William in the 10th century. The three lions represent Pamplona, Viguera and Gascony, which Navarre claims.

    The flag used by Italy originates with the noble family in charge of Tuscany. In fact the fleur-de-lys seems to come from Florence in particular, hence its use here.

    The flag of Provencia is a combination. The Dukes of Narbonne started using a gold Bolnisi cross on a red field early on, and the other side is the banner utilized commonly in Provence. The current banner demonstrates the union of Narbonne-Toulouse and Provence-Arelat.
     
  17. Saya Aensland Well-Known Member

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    What's the ratio of Romance speakers to Basque speakers in Navarre? Is Basque doing better or worse compared to OTL?
     
  18. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    I don't have much data on the historical distribution of Basque versus other languages, but the written language there is Latin and most of the ruling class are actually fluent in a Latin dialect similar to Gascon, owing in part to the unification with Aquitaine in the 11th century. For a time, owing to the marriage with the ruling house of York, the rulers spoke Anglish as their first language, but that's lapsed somewhat, and they now tend to speak Gasconesque officially and Basque in casual speech. Most common people, however, speak Basque, though finding a written document in the Basque language is impossible right now.

    Basically Basque is holding its own for now, but Navarre is also a weak kingdom and has held on mainly due to political divisions in Santiago prohibiting them from expanding eastward, so who knows how long that'll last.
     
  19. SenatorErnesto Well-Known Member

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    Mar 24, 2017
    Do the Basque have the same whaling/fishing tradition as per OTL? And if so, does that mean they are benefiting form the Andalusi improvements in deep water ship technology? There has always been speculation(and possibly proof) of Basque fisherman in the Grand Banks around Columbus's voyages.

    Along that line, and forgive me if this has been answered before, but has there been any New World voyages by Santiago, Navarre, or another Christian nation?
     
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  20. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    Of the Christian nations, only one has reached the New World: Denmark, centuries before Al-Andalus did. However, the settlements in Vinland were ephemeral and are now abandoned, and visits to Markland are rare at best and have declined. There is a small colony at the tip of Greenland that is holding on by the skin of its teeth.

    Word about the New World has begun to filter through mariner circles, and it's unofficially known about, but the Christian nations have been slower to adapt Islamic ship technology, mainly due to lack of need. Most trade enjoyed by the Christian kingdoms is either in the Mediterranean - Genoa, Venice, Meridiana, the Italian cities, the Papal States and the Bataids largely use galleys - or in the North Sea, where the typical ship is a chunkier sort of thing with similarities to the cog. Santiago itself tends to trade along the coast with ships like that. The best shipbuilders right now are likely the Danes, the Anglish and the Basques. The former two groups have a fine sailing tradition, while the latter group have adopted a few Muslim shipbuilding tricks as part of their whaling tradition. In particular they have adopted the lateen sail as part of their efforts to sail out farther and catch up to the whales they tend to pursue.

    There are three particular sub-areas likeliest to reach the New World first: Welsh-Anglish whalers from along the Severn Estuary, fishermen and pirates lurking around Cornwall, and Basque whalers sailing out of San Sebastian. The whalers in particular have spread some Muslim shipbuilding ideas, which spread largely through diffusion of knowledge up the Ebro over the course of various petty wars.

    The typical Basque whaling ship has a lot in common with the Andalusian saqin - it's sleek and has lateen sails, and it can handle deep water. It's theoretically capable of getting to the New World, though they haven't yet, largely because they have fewer opportunities for happy accidents than Moorish sailors trying to swing out past the Bight of Benin. But they've started to get around and bring shipbuilding knowledge along. In particular, Basque whalers tend to range into the British Isles and will often trade in towns like Exeter, Cardiff and Bristol. They can also be found off the west coast of Ireland, where they like to trade in Cork and Galway, and can reach as far as the New Hebrides and Orkney Island. They also whale along the northern coast of Iberia, with a whaling station having been established in Corunna in the early 1300s. Santiagonian cogs are sleeker and more capable in deeper water than most of their northern neighbours because of exposure to the more capable Basque ships. Basque whalers will uncommonly poke around the Maghurins and have been known to stop over at Jazirat al-Iman to trade with the Mozarabic Christians who live there.

    The short version is that there has been no Columbus yet, but the Basques and the Anglish are getting close to a few surprise discoveries of their own.
     
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