Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Planet of Hats, Aug 21, 2016.

Loading...
  1. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Location:
    Land of Rust and Snow
    I'll pop an answer out quickly here: There is really no neo-Romanism movement in Andalusian architecture.

    You'll certainly see colonnaded areas in places. However, it's extremely uncommon to see columns with classical order-type capitals, and they're rarely fluted. In southern Andalusia, for example, what you'll often see are columns made of white macael marble quarried in Almeria. Green macael is less common but seen as more upscale. There's a popular pink marble from western Andalusia that the elites really like. Often you'll see columns capped off with fabulous arches, vaults, muqarnas and other such arch trickery.

    While many families embrace their Gothic or Hispano-Roman ancestry - the Banu Angelino, for ex - they embrace Islamic tradition more, and Roman styles are seen as somewhat Christian.
     
  2. haider najib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Location:
    Has no idea
    Yes it was it was part of Exarchate which was conquered during the muslim conquest.

    Most of the population has been islamized and adopted slot of berber-arab culture. I doubt visigothic culture is still dominate. So any romanization left it 'light'. Visigoths are not ruling andaulsia are they. It was the ruling upper class that built romanish stuff and they are long dead. We gone through a arab ruling class, slave, to andalusian visigoths don't matter.

    Thats early we are not in early islamic history. Also most of that is in the middle east not andalusia. Also its been hundreds of years since umayyad caliphate they been cut off from middle east. Andalusia had very little byzantine architecture built by umayyad.
    I already asked this andalusian muslims are not painting people etc yet.

    My arguement is that any greco-roman influence is gone because the visigoths are not a thing they are not a ruling class or have power. They have also been un romanised due to islam and adopting more arabian and berber culture. Also time wise its been hundreds of years since there influence was felt why would it have survived.

    My arguement is essentially anyone with knowledge or the interest to build roman stuff is either dead or has no power, influence or money. Also islamic architecture has evolved adopting more persian stuff . There isn't enough influence left to have any major effect.

    Edit: planets answered to for me.
     
    Alexander the Average likes this.
  3. Aghstadian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Location:
    Eurasia
    jocay likes this.
  4. Timeline Junkie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Location:
    The Citadel, Oldtown

    Will we be seeing this style exported to the Americas? How will colonial administration work? I have just have too many questions. Your timeline is just so good.
     
  5. B_Munro Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Location:
    Albuquerque
    I imagine there will be a substantial import trade in American decorative plants in this timeline. I imagine many Mesoamerican flowering plants will do OK in southern Spain given adequate watering. Of course, tropical plants will be a bit tougher: greenhouse tech develops?
     
    circular and Planet of Hats like this.
  6. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Location:
    Land of Rust and Snow
    goshhhhh

    So far, colonial administration takes the form of the makzan system: The Andalusians move in, find a key trade chokepoint like a river-mouth or an offshore island, and set up a depot called a makzan, which has some basic things: A harbour, warehouses, a garrison, and some housing for a small permanent population, many of whom learn the local language and customs. The person in charge of the makzan is dispatched by the trade governor in the Kaledat Islands and approved by the Hajib, runs things for a few years and then comes back. In places where they trade in an existing city, they just use the existing facilities, though they could theoretically have a makzan there if they buy or build harbour space for themselves. Aside from Mahmud ibn Asafu, there's yet to be a huge move towards organized colonies, and the Andalusians prefer the trade post model because it's cheaper and it's logistically difficult to conquer enemies overseas.

    The headquarters at the makzan is usually a small alcazar with a garden in this style.

    Definitely. What'll also come over are birds. Menageries are a thing wealthy Andalusians have. Al-Mustakshif came back with sun conures, and there's a certain fascination with New World birds. Birdcage culture is a thing, and they're well on their way to creating the first Andalusian aviary on the grounds of the Great Alcazar of Isbili - which already has the most splendid gardens in Andalusia.

    If you like birds, you'll like the next chapter. Work in progress.
     
  7. Threadmarks: ACT VII Part X: The Southern Tip and the Sea of Cod

    Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Location:
    Land of Rust and Snow
    "Look at this little cutie! Look, look!" gushed 'Amr ibn Shajara al-Qunki with delight as he gesticulated at the tiny figure in front of him. "He waddles right up to me as if we are best friends! Look at his little fins! Look at how he has no feathers!" He leaned forward and moued his lips.

    "You forgot to put your feathers on, didn't you?" he cooed at the nonplussed avian standing about nine feet in front of him. "Didn't you, precious?"

    The three-foot-tall black-and-white avian cocked its head back at him before turning and shuffling away.[1] Ibn Shajara's face fell. But he couldn't hold the disappointment for long.

    Not when it waddled like that.

    "They're not even that good to eat," shouted one of the crew from down the beach. "Why are you fixated on them?"

    "Well, aren't you?" Drawing himself up, Ibn Shajara planted his hands at his hips and looked over his shoulder towards where the landing party had gathered to start a fire. Most of them had bundled up in their blankets, a few in the furs they'd traded with the al-Garbiyyin for earlier in the week. "They're like nothing we've ever seen before, right?"

    Someone by the fire sneezed, then sniffled. Most of the crew hunkered deeper into their warm clothing. The creatures here may have been interesting, but Ibn Shajara could see why they might not appreciate the wonder of the creatures he'd taken to calling the tamayil, for the way it wobbled when it walked. The weather here was cold - colder than even the depths of winter in the north of Al-Andalus, and far more humid. The chill seemed to sink into the flesh and penetrate down to the bone. The men had complained of lethargy and weariness, and glimpses of the sun seemed somehow rare and inadequate here.

    The explorer's ebullience dampened. The weather hadn't done them any favours, and neither had the relative poverty of the al-Garbiyyin who lived north of here, the land they'd called the Deepest South - Janub al-'Amiq. There was, simply, little for them to trade beyond furs and simple things.

    "Whatever," he sighed as he dropped roughly into a seat by the fire, where some manner of fish was roasting. "At least it was better than that hideous seabird."

    "The smelly one?" someone scoffed.[2]

    "The smelly one." Ibn Shajara curled his lips with distaste. Yet another disaster on this voyage. His plan looked sillier and sillier the harder he looked at it: Try to find the southernmost end of the Gharb al-Aqsa, then cut around it to get to whatever the west of Anawak was like. But the Gharb al-Aqsa had stretched further south than he thought, and there had been no cities to find, and while it seemed that the land had begun to curve back to the north here, the land beyond this point seemed inhospitable, cold and empty.

    No place for a tired, annoyed crew. Sullen, red-nosed faces looked back at the captain in various states of exhaustion and frustration, and Ibn Shajara looked back at them, unable to suppress a sniffle as the chill bit at his cheeks too.

    "I know this has been harder than we thought," he admitted with a sigh.

    "By God's eyeteeth it has," someone snapped.

    "Okay. Okay, I deserved that. Thanks." Ibn Shajara hung his head with a grimace. "I will tell you what. When the morning comes, we will get back to the ships. The winds blow east from here. If we follow them and veer north, we should make it to the Zadazir and a friendly port with more money. Make sense?"

    The proposal hung in the air for a few seconds before, finally, the crew began to nod various degrees of agreement.

    Someone sneezed again. Off in the distance, a tamayil squawked.


    ~


    The shoreline fog was deep and all-consuming. In the dim light of a cloudy dawn, it felt like it was going to swallow Muhammad ibn Al-Mu'izz az-Zamardi whole. The crunch of the snow under his boots felt unseasonal at this time of year, for he'd never truly walked in it. The blanket he'd brought with him barely seemed adequate to stave the moist cold off. It seeped into the creases in his clothing and clung to his muscles, turning his breath to fog and his spit to crystals.

    Wherever they'd found, it was misery. The six men who had come with him were the bravest of his crews from all three ships - ships full of men intent already on pursuing rumours of a land where the most daring fishermen from Lishbuna went to find vast catches of fish.[3] To find actual land was surprising enough. But then, there'd been quite a few discoveries in recent years.

    Something about the Farthest West. Ibn Al-Mu'izz could've sworn that was just the Maghurins.

    A tap on his shoulder got his attention - Bashir behind him, crossbow in hand. With a frown, Ibn Al-Mu'izz swung past a strange tree - mostly nude of leaves. He paused just long enough to wipe his nose on his sleeve before brushing through a stand of scraggly branches, some kind of bush, before moving towards the distant sound. Something moving in the trees. A person?

    He rounded another grove of trees, squinting into the fog to try and spot whatever he could hear. It sounded closer now - possibly even too close. The hairs on the back of his neck stood up.

    "Isa bin Maryam's beard, what is that?!" one of the crew suddenly shouted in a voice peaking with panic.

    "What," Ibn Al-Mu'izz snapped, whirling towards the sound - and he nearly stumbled in wide-eyed shock at the sight of behemoth surging out of the mist. It was taller than any one of them, massive and with an immense, shaggy brow crowned by enormous prongs in the shapes of devilish hands, each big enough around to grasp a strong man and rip his life out. The monstrosity lurched unnaturally and let out a deep, rolling bellow that thundered through the frozen forest like the war cry of some impossible offspring of Iblis.

    "What is that thing?!" one of the crew shrieked. The sound of a crossbow firing rang in Ibn Al-Mu'izz's' ears. There was a woody 'THWOCK' as the bolt smacked into a tree trunk.

    "I don't care, run!" he shouted back at the crew as panic seized him. Whirling, he turned to stagger through the trees, bolting as fast as he could. The crew dashed with him. His leg snagged a stand of shrubbery, and he tumbled, catching himself with effort, throwing a look over his shoulder to try and see if the massive thing was still behind them, or if the mist had swallowed it. He could hear the men with him, shouting "Allahu akbar" as if to vainly defy their own panic. Darting past a tree, he looked behind him again, and turned --

    And a pair of hands abruptly snaked out and grabbed him by the biceps. With a yelp, Ibn Al-Mu'izz was pulled towards a larger tree, suddenly finding himself staring into the dark eyes of a broad-faced man of middle years, heavily wrapped in furs, a spear in his hand and a bow slung over his shoulder. His gaze bored into the Andalusian beyond the wear lines in his face. For a moment, the explorer's breath caught in his throat.

    Slowly, the stranger raised his hand to his mouth, eyes locked on Ibn Al-Mu'izz's as if to convey something to him. He held the hand over his lips for a moment, then lowered it to whisper something.

    "Moos." The stranger nodded into the forest.[4]

    "Is- is that what that is," Ibn Al-Mu'izz managed through his heavy breathing. In the distance, another bellow echoed through the trees. This time the tone of it was a little different.[5]

    The stranger peered at him for a moment. "Tami tleyawin kil," he said, still keeping his voice down.

    Ibn Al-Mu'izz just blinked at him.

    The man stared into the explorer's face for a moment before, finally, breathing a sigh and letting go of Ibn Al-Mu'izz's shoulders. The Andalusian stepped back and straightened his blanket, grimacing. "...This is going to make for quite the conversation," he managed to mutter through the whirl of emotions, before he had to bring his arm up to sniffle gracelessly into it. As if the moos wasn't enough.

    Wordlessly, the hunter shrugged off one of the heavy fur garments he was wearing. His expression was stoic as he held the garment open towards Ibn Al-Mu'izz, giving it a brisk shake.

    Aware of his crew beginning to gather, Ibn Al-Mu'izz ducked his head gratefully and accepted the gift. The fur was warm as the hunter draped it around him. As he did so, the underbrush rustled again, and more hunters began to appear, one of them a younger man carrying two freshly-shot rabbits.

    "Thank you," Ibn Al-Mu'izz attempted, folding his hands together and dipping his head as if to somehow convey gratitude with his body language alone. He'd never tried this before - speaking with someone he had no common language with whatsoever. "Thank you. Thank. You."

    The strangers - about four of them, all armed and in layers of fur - looked among themselves. Then, all of a sudden, the young man with the rabbits laughed heartily, waving his hand towards the group of Muslims. He said something broadly that Ibn Al-Mu'izz couldn't follow, but he could see the patient smile breaking across the first hunter's face.

    The first hunter said something. He gestured with one hand towards the explorers before beginning to step back into the thinning fog.

    "W-what do we do?" asked one of the crew.

    Ibn Al-Mu'izz blinked twice before pulling the fur cape tighter around himself. "...They want us to come with them. So let's go with them."

    "Are you sure that's wise?"

    "No." He grimaced. "But I'm sure they're good people."


    [1] In which the Andalusians meet a penguin.
    [2] Someone made the mistake of shooting a southern giant petrel. No, they didn't eat it. It's called the stinker for a reason.
    [3] Not exactly Basque fishermen.
    [4] In which the Andalusians meet a moose.
    [5] The Mi'kmaq hunt moose through a number of means, including by imitating moose calls. If you haven't guessed, Ibn Shajara found Tierra del Fuego and Ibn Al-Mu'izz found Nova Scotia.

     
  8. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Location:
    Santa Marta,Magdalena,West Venezuela
    So the Ara and other birds from the new world/maghrib alongside all the cats too?
     
  9. inawarminister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Location:
    インドネシア
    Huh, Andalusians are active EVERYWHERE from the northest Atlantic to Antarticas. Wew!

    On one hand, there is going to be a shortage of manpower so no empire building as of yet. Also, the diseases going to go hit all the Native Americans in the east coasts immediately, instead of in waves like IOTL (IIRC Caribbeans first, then Mexico, then Central Americas and Northeast Brazil; the four Iberian colonising spots, before the pandemics are transmitted to other Native societies through land and trade routes.) I've heard the Mississippian mound building societies where destroyed by plagues transmitted from Spanish Florida, hundreds of Kilometres from the nearest Old Wielder, while other societies manage to survive the diseases only to die off when latter-day explorers contact them, like Clark and Lewis? In this timeline, many of them will get the first hit.

    On the other hand, the native societies should be able to recover, even if slower without Old Worlder genetic "contribution", will avoid the fatal socioeconomic repression from colonists, like what occured in this timeline's Caribbeans. Again, not enough Andalusians to go around. Also, the European Christians won't be able to conquer North America without Andalusian-supported opposition.

    Regardless, very, very interesting development.
     
  10. Al-numbers Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2013
    Location:
    Between Gensokyo and Berk
    Too bad moose are afraid of the sound of gunfire and are hard to train, because how cool would there be for TTL Andalusian and native MOOSE CAVALRY?

    [​IMG]
     
    circular and haider najib like this.
  11. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Location:
    Land of Rust and Snow
    There's snow, it's too cold for delicate Andalusian sun-lovers. :p
     
  12. Yama951 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2016
    The guy baby talking a penguin was just adorable and likely an attempt to raise morale.

    Now I'm curious if they'll end up finding a sea route to the Incan empire.
     
  13. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Location:
    Land of Rust and Snow
    Not even a billion PODs can change the fact that penguins are absolutely adorable.
     
  14. haider najib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Location:
    Has no idea
    so a moose defeated the best of Andalusia. Side question how powerful are Andalusian crossbow can they kill a moose?
     
    HerodotosofBerlin likes this.
  15. snassni2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Lol. I see what you did there.
     
  16. LunazimHawk Your Friendly Neighborhood Bengal Sultan

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    To be fair I did kind of expect the Andalusians to reach the Atlantic Coast, the Basque fishermen OTL had been fishing their secretly for decades prior to Columbus.
    The Andalusians meeting the Mikmaq is a plus for both party, I suspect that they’ll replicate what the French did in Canada and mostly set up trading routes for fur and other resources.
    If the Andalusians don’t grab penguins on their way back to El-Andalus, I’m going to be disappointed.
     
  17. haider najib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Location:
    Has no idea
    Grab a moose and take that. Can mooses be domesticated/broken in like horses?
     
  18. Al-numbers Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2013
    Location:
    Between Gensokyo and Berk
    As a wholesale species, it's mixed. Some potential has been seen for them being pack and haul animals, and riding has been a thing for them in modern America and Canada. But their varied diet of leaves, twigs, bark and lichen are more suitable for ranching-style production, and their choice of food limits them heavily to the boreal far north of the globe. Additionally, captive moose are found to get sick and die without roaming around, so a moose domesticate would be more in line with a nomadic group rather than intensive Al-Andalus.

    But among other things, they are simply too smart; moose would refuse to enter battle when it could endanger their self-preservation. Then there is their rut. You do NOT want be between a moose and his rut. :eek:
     
  19. haider najib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Location:
    Has no idea
    Btw with the fall of Constantinople already happened. Is the conquest of cyprus the new thing who ever done it is the top muslim or something.

    Also will we get any manzikert style battles at any point for anyone? Massive armies engaging each other being both lead by the leaders of there nations this battle being make or break that will single handily decide the future of the war and one leader will die or be captured. There haven't been any major battles so far it seems nothing like hastings, manzikert, hatin, sekighara, bosworth, ice. There seems to be little battle of notes in this worlds medieval times. Andaulsia hasn't produced anything more than a large skirmish. Fall of Byzantium and aftermath seems to be more about decline and wearing down the enemy no major battles for the history channel.
     
    Remitonov likes this.
  20. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Location:
    Land of Rust and Snow
    There have been plenty of battles. The Battle Off Paphos, for instance, forestalled the takeover of Sicily for awhile, while the Battle of Kabrir, between Andalusia and the Genoese-Provencal League, was the largest naval battle in the Mediterranean since the classical age. Back a couple centuries ago, the Battle of Trogidis was pivotal in delivering Anatolia into the hands of Mizraq Arslan and the Turkmens. Earlier than that, the Battle of Gurgan cleared the way for the Turkmens to invade Daylam, while Al-Muntasir personally led the big invasion of the Ebro Valley and the destruction of Viguera. I haven't emphasized them all because I find the minutiae of troop movement tedious to describe.

    Traditionally, the Hajib hasn't led from the front in awhile.
     
    BootOnFace, circular, I'tikaf and 4 others like this.
Loading...