Iranian languages never went extinct, neither were Turkish.
It's just Afroasiatic languages, for whatever reason, were too vulnerable to shifts in dominant language. Perhaps it's because Arabic is their distant cousin?
Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline
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It's just Afroasiatic languages, for whatever reason, were too vulnerable to shifts in dominant language. Perhaps it's because Arabic is their distant cousin?
The relative difference in power between Persia and mesoamerica in relation to the Arab conquerors is to pretty dramatic. Considering the castillians assimilated much of the native population into their language without Castilian *literally being the word of god, shows how much conquest and population free fall can do.
Also I doubt that Nahua Islamic dynasties could rise in the valley of Mexico post conquest in the way that Persian and Turkic dynasties could.
Perhaps not Nahua but I wouldn't be surprised if native american peoples from a little farther north play the role of slave soldier that eventually establish their own dynasties.
Like the Chicimecans that IOTL won a war against New Spain (before getting pacified by the Church)
Many migrations coming after the pandemics slow down I think.
Planet of Hats
Donor
Interestingly, many of the northern nomads seem to have different religious practices than those in the Valley of Mexico, and some of them seem to have worshiped the moon. For ex, it doesn't seem like the Zacatecas did human sacrifice.
We need to take into account the script of the language. Both Turkish and Iranian adopted the Arabic script (former then changing) can Mesoamerican language adopt the arabic script?
Possible but they already have some but arabic is very useful for vowels
To be fair, it's mainly the Aztecs (more precisely, the Mexica) whom have a really strong bent towards sun veneration and abhorrence of the night, since their patron god Huitzilopotchli is also their sun god and protector of the world. Otherwise, not every pious person in Mexico would think harshly of Islam's caring for the moon and such, like what Planet of Hats said.
As for fasting, it's practiced in Mesoamerica among religious folks for certain times for many gods, so it's not uncommon, and self-sacrifice (mainly through bloodletting and piercing) is a known concept for peoples like the Maya. It's how the practices are contextualized that makes all the difference. A House of Lamps combined Totonac concepts of purity with Taharah, so such cultural mixing might occur ITTL.
Maybe they can relate over cats? America has big cats islam has the smaller cats. Untill they bring a barbery lion.
jocay
Banned
Castilian became THE prestige language when Latin America secured its independence and its political elite, of European descent, decided that they needed to adopt a European language as the lingua franca and become civilized. The Spanish themselves did a very poor job spreading Castilian and if anything aided the spread of languages like Quechua and Nahuatl. Arabic here will always be important due to Islam but that doesn't necessarily mean they abandon their own languages. Or if that any Arabic dialects that form in the New World wouldn't be so different that they become classified as their own languages.
Planet of Hats
Donor
Kitties are universal.
See, this is where I'm trying to walk with care. A House of Lamps and this TL deal in some overlapping magisteria, mainly Muslim settlement of the New World, but I also want to take an approach whereby people will read this and not just say "Oh, he's just copying A House of Lamps." You're likely seeing some differences already. For ex, first contact here was with Brazil, there's been no invasion of the Yucatan, and there are no Aztecs in the Valley of Mexico.
I've tried to divorce myself from soaking up too many other ideas about an Islamic New World for the sake of having the ideas be substantially my ideas.
Annoyingly, one of the things I have not been able to find is a concise paper or book on specific Tepanec religious practices. We do at least know that Huitzilopochtli in his Aztec form was not an important part of the Nahua religious belief structure until the Aztecs brought him in as their patron deity and restructured the system around him. That said, the Tepanec apparently had an Otomi element to their ethnogenesis considering that the patron god of Azcapotzalco was the fire god Otontecutli, who is also probably called Xocotl but who is also apparently the patron of the Otomi people. This is interesting because the Tepanecs were also apparently Nahua nomads, so some assimilation and cultural mixing must've occurred, possibly in the form of a nomadic Nahua population integrating an already-present Otomi one. Of course, it also seems that Otontecutli may or may not be a variant form of Huitzilopochtli and is probably one of Xiuhtecuhtli-Huehueteotl-combo-god-concept - he is, at least, a warrior-type god associated with fire, the sunset, warriors, metalworking and gemstones. Certainly he seems to be important to the Xocotl Huetzi festival, which involves a bunch of things but also involved the sacrifice of prisoners.
Basically we're in the misty pre-Aztec age on a lot of high Mesoamerican religious practices and we're not super sure what they were like before the Aztecs came along and put their own spin on the pantheon, and it's even more jumbled because there are a lot of overlapping magisteria and ethnoregional names and traditions around the same broad concepts - e.g. there are probably a dozen Huitzilopochtlis with different names and flavour attributes, and while they may be variants of each other, they are also sufficiently different that the Aztecs had to introduce Huitzilopochtli in detail despite Otontecutli possibly being a form of the same conceptual-based deity. Or maybe Otontecutli was that other fire god.
There are probably some things we're sure of, mind - the Feathered Serpent has been cropping up for centuries, of course, and the Flayed God ain't goin' nowhere.
One thing that does seem evident is that the people in the Valley of Not-Really-Mexico-ITTL are not quite going to be as broadly classifiable as "Oh, the Aztecs" as they might normally be, and that Otomi-speaking people might have a more important role to play, possibly even when compared to Nahua-speakers. Even in Texcoco/Tashquq, the ruling class are speakers of Otomi. OTL, it seems that the Tepanecs eventually gave the Otomi the boot by 1418 and kicked them out of the Valley. At this point, however, the Otomi city-state of Xaltocan still exists. It certainly appears that the Otomi have been there awhile.
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More like how islam favours cats and the prophet likes cats abd doesn't mesoamerican religion also have high view of the big cats. I can imagine the ultimate prestige animal would be a barbery lion the biggest cat that can take on jaguars all kings of america will need one.
Barbary Lions as an invasive species in the Americas?
Why not
Also importing them so american kings can have a arms race on how has more barbery lions i doubt will bring enough for a sustainable population to start.
Planet of Hats
Donor
The more I scratch at what sources are available to me, the more it seems like there are some interesting factors with Mesoamerica in this timeline:
1) The Nahuatl language is not as entrenched as it is in 1519 OTL, to the point where the Otomi language may still be a lingua franca, and non-Nahua ethnic groups are still a politically relevant entity rather than a marginalized group whose language is treated with scorn. The Tepanec themselves likely speak Nahuatl, but many of their subjects speak Otomi and many of their gods are Otomi (e.g. Otontecuhtli aka Xiuhtecuhtli-Huehueteotl); the Acolhua still speak Otomi but are becoming more inclined towards Nahuatl; and the Otomi centres at Xaltocan and Metztitlan still exist and probably have a certain influence, even if it's a declining one. ITTL, around this time, the Acolhua switched from speaking Otomi to speaking Nahuatl, and within 40 years, Xaltocan would be defeated by Azcapotzalco; we're coming in, in other words, right around the time of a major transition which is seeing Otomi elements shoved out of society and Nahua elements on the ascendancy, but the transition is not yet complete.
2) The Caxcan make for an interesting alternate migration given that OTL they seem to have been the most sedentary of the so-called "Chichimeca." ITTL they must have been punted out of their lands by someone else and may be arriving in the Central Valley in a diminished state. We know virtually nothing about the gods of the Caxcanes - which means I'm somewhat obligated to exhale a vast cloud of butterflies - but it's likely that they have formed something of an infusion of Nahua speakers into the Tepanec polity, and it's likely that they're adopting Tepanec cultural mores a bit more readily than the Aztecs. That said, ITTL they've formed their own city somewhat southy from Azcapotzalco and have a big temple there that focuses a bit on Xolotl-Nanahuatzin.
3) Nomadic Nahua migrations from the north are probably not done even after the Caxcan and are certainly ongoing, and they probably represent threats to the existing order. The Mexica may not be imminently coming, but someone kicked the Caxcan out of places like El Teol. There are some pretty tough nomadic groups out there; OTL, for ex, even the Mexica stepped lightly around the Tecuexe, and the Guachichil gave the Spanish an enormous amount of grief.
1) The Nahuatl language is not as entrenched as it is in 1519 OTL, to the point where the Otomi language may still be a lingua franca, and non-Nahua ethnic groups are still a politically relevant entity rather than a marginalized group whose language is treated with scorn. The Tepanec themselves likely speak Nahuatl, but many of their subjects speak Otomi and many of their gods are Otomi (e.g. Otontecuhtli aka Xiuhtecuhtli-Huehueteotl); the Acolhua still speak Otomi but are becoming more inclined towards Nahuatl; and the Otomi centres at Xaltocan and Metztitlan still exist and probably have a certain influence, even if it's a declining one. ITTL, around this time, the Acolhua switched from speaking Otomi to speaking Nahuatl, and within 40 years, Xaltocan would be defeated by Azcapotzalco; we're coming in, in other words, right around the time of a major transition which is seeing Otomi elements shoved out of society and Nahua elements on the ascendancy, but the transition is not yet complete.
2) The Caxcan make for an interesting alternate migration given that OTL they seem to have been the most sedentary of the so-called "Chichimeca." ITTL they must have been punted out of their lands by someone else and may be arriving in the Central Valley in a diminished state. We know virtually nothing about the gods of the Caxcanes - which means I'm somewhat obligated to exhale a vast cloud of butterflies - but it's likely that they have formed something of an infusion of Nahua speakers into the Tepanec polity, and it's likely that they're adopting Tepanec cultural mores a bit more readily than the Aztecs. That said, ITTL they've formed their own city somewhat southy from Azcapotzalco and have a big temple there that focuses a bit on Xolotl-Nanahuatzin.
3) Nomadic Nahua migrations from the north are probably not done even after the Caxcan and are certainly ongoing, and they probably represent threats to the existing order. The Mexica may not be imminently coming, but someone kicked the Caxcan out of places like El Teol. There are some pretty tough nomadic groups out there; OTL, for ex, even the Mexica stepped lightly around the Tecuexe, and the Guachichil gave the Spanish an enormous amount of grief.
Planet of Hats
Donor
The Mexica exist! They're just... northy a ways. They're hanging around the Xalisco Kingdom, kicking them around for fun and profit.I know it's your TL, but a Mesoamerica without the Mexica just seems wrong somehow. Hopefully they can arrive and take over as they were meant to
In a way, the Mexica seem to have been an anomaly in Mesoamerican high culture: They undertook an abnormal number of sacrifices and they extorted an abnormal quantity of tribute from their neighbours, and they held their empire in line by scaring their tributaries with the threat of swinging by and giving them a good stompin'. The threat of an army coming by to kick down your house works... until someone gives the army a bloody nose, anyway. Even if Cortes never arrived, Mesoamerica was primed to explode on the Mexica in spectacular fashion, given how many of their tributaries despised them. Then again, Mesoamerica exploded on the Tepanecs, too. Then again, Mesoamerica exploded on Teotihuacan, too. Then again... ... ...
The Valley of Mexico in general just seems to get whacked every now and then by nomadic arrivals from the north who come in and shake everything up, usually Nahuatl-speakers. In some ways it reminds me of Persia during the Turkic migration period, except instead of Turks on horseback, it's Mexica wandering in going "HELLO FRIENDS, do you have a moment to talk about Huitzilopochtli?"
Honestly have never heard of the Guachilchil till your last post. Decided to take a quick stroll into what they’re all about.
And WOW, now that’s a culture yearning to have some fun in any timeline.
And WOW, now that’s a culture yearning to have some fun in any timeline.
Same here! The Guachilchil and the Chichimecs in general could be seen as Mesoamerica's version of the Turkic and Mongol tribes. Only without horses.
...is there a way for these peoples to get horses?
...is there a way for these peoples to get horses?
I can imagine a respect (grudging or otherwise) between the Chichimecs and the deep desert Amazigh that form the transplanted members of the Blue Army. Both groups of rough and ready warrior-folk who are more than a little scowly at the all too soft settled people around them. Convert Chichemecs might find the Amazigh kishafa philisophical brethren from across the Ocean Sea.
Anyways, OTL Chichimeca learned horsemanship pretty quickly during the course of the Chichimeca War where they kicked Spanish ass - some Spaniards even said they'd become better riders than them in just a few months thanks to novel riding styles.
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