Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

"I got guys." :biggrin:

Some more interesting hints about the Islamic future in the Americas. I see the emergence of an "Atlantic Islam" in Iberia, NW Africa, and however much of the Americas they manage to defend from the Christians, in which the Crossing will have a world-historical significance even greater than Columbus et al has for OTL Spain.
 
Wouldn't Taqadoum (the progress/advancement) be the better term? Taqadam is the male verb.

Looking forward to the crossing and how they will deal with the natives.
 
With Egypt and the middle east in general being such a mess, does this disrupt trade patterns with the further east, redirecting a lot of that trade north towards Russia? This could have some consequences for Mediterranean trade development.
 
Great update! With Al-Hasan's son now dead, I wonder what's going to happen with the succession.

Al-Hasan has quite a few sons and even a grandson or two, but many of them are young, and the question of which one he'll pass things to is now very much open.

If hours of Crusader Kings 2 has taught me anything it's that polygamy is a great insurance against dynastic extinction. But not so great when it comes to succession struggles.
 
ACT VI Part II: The Two Brothers and the Father of Danger
Excerpt: The Mohammedan Peoples of Andelucia and Their Ways - Bertrand de Rennes, AD 1257


Of the Mohammedans there are three great peoples who follow their faith, and they are called Saracen, Turcoman and Moor.[1] And it will be the third of whom we tell the most in these writings, for it is they who inhabit the lands upon which we meditate.

It is the Saracen who is the oldest of the Mohammedans, and from him who the belief in this faith comes. Now the Saracen dwells in the east, in Egypt and Syria, in Persia and of late in Anatolia. And he is most often a learned man, but a warrior, who is made hardy by the land in which he lives, and he travels most often by the horse and the camel. Now the Saracen most often lives alongside the Turcoman, who comes from the lands of Gog and Magog[2], and he is a man who admires horses, and it is he who most often rules over the Saracen, (though in truth the Saracen is free of the Turcoman in Egypt). And the Turcoman rules as well over the Greek, in Constantinople and Varna, and loves the Greek's ways and his treasures, but cannot be swayed from his Mohammedanism. And it is the Turcoman who makes war in the east and covets more of the treasures of the Greeks, and claims the title of Caesar.

But it is the Moor of whom we address, and he is so called because he comes from Mauretania, and has from there come to dwell in Africa, and to rule in Andelusia. And of his race there are two types, and they are the Black Moors and the White Moors, and they are so called because some are of the darkest complexion and some are fair as angels.[3] And the White Moors dwell mostly in Andelucia, and the Black Moors in all places where the Moor may be found. And the White Moors are most often great warriors and scholars, and the Black Moors are most often tradesmen and sailors and scholars. And so are things divided among the Moors.

It must be said of the Moor that he is the most noble of the Mohammedans, and that the Christian dwells among the Moor's numbers without punishment, and the Moor does not raise anger against the bishops of the Christians among them (and indeed the Christians speak the tongue of the Moor here). And it is said as well that the Jew lives in these lands as well and is loved by the Moor for his ways.[4] And he is unlike the Saracen and the Turcoman, for the Saracen does travel mostly by the camel, and the Turcoman does admire the horse and the saddle, but the Moor is most fond of the sea, and his vessels are swift, and carry much treasure. And they are known to be masters of alchemy, and transform olive oil into gold[5], and they have many gold things and baubles, and great knowledge as well, for they are learners and merchants, and they dabble in the ways of healers and scribes.

Now it must be said that the wisdom of the Moor is known to some, and it is said that even some men of God have traveled to Andelucia and been among the Moors, and understood their ways. And the traders say that the Moor can be found in great numbers in Amalfi, where many of their vessels travel, and the goods they sell are wonders from far-off lands.[6] And it is in this way that some have learned to live with the Moor, for though he is a fine warrior, he is nevertheless a lover of trade. And some say that the Moor travels even to the edge of the earth, and has seen the domain of Leviathan.



~


Excerpt: Al-Andalus in the Precrossing Period - Gharsiya Jalaleddine, Academia Metropress, AD 1996


The disposition of Saraqusta would not be fully accomplished in the lifetime of Al-Hasan. The region had long been a northeastern stronghold, with the warlord 'Amr controlling the mostly-Saqaliba army typically stationed at Madinat as-Salih. Skirmishes between the two sides took place, and troops loyal to the Caliph routinely squabbled with troops loyal to 'Amr in various small raids. However, little full-scale fighting took place save between the King of Navarre and 'Amr.

Part of this seems to have been due to Al-Hasan's insistence on rebuilding the infrastructure and governance of Al-Andalus. While the Andalusi Revolt brought a large faction of armed Andalusis to power, and Al-Hasan himself had his personal guard, he continued to face intractable regional lords who had been appointed by the late Saqlabids. Over the term of Al-Hasan's rule, many of these lords were removed and replaced with local rulers of muwallad ancestry, always appointed by Al-Hasan for a lifetime term and certified by the Caliph. These rulers were not hereditary landholders as they tended to be in Christian feudalities, but appointed governors who ruled for life (or until removal) and could be replaced by the Caliph's order. As such, the power of Caliphal appointment increased in this time, and the standing of the Caliph grew, though his powers continued to be exercised largely by the hajib.

While Al-Hasan could not fully subdue his breakaway lords in the northeast, his reign marks a flowering of Andalusi trader culture. The 13th century in general represents a time of bold leaps in shipbuilding technology and integration of a broader Western Islam marketplace bolstered by economic developments in Ifriqiya, the Maghreb and Subsahara.

The defeat of the Al-Mutahirin had restored the Berber Coast to the control of more stable dynasties with their seats in urban centres. The stability the Rezkids of Fes and the Igiderids of Mahdia provided created the conditions to reverse the trend of decline which began when the Fatimids moved their capital to Egypt and comparatively neglected Ifriqiya. The period marks a steady growth of urban life and greening. Andalusian-style waterwheels begin to appear in this period along rivers in the Maghreb, and evidence exists of increased farming and irrigation.[7]

But it was the increased integration of Sudani trade into Andalusian life which would drive the urge to trade beyond the Ibero-Berber Kingdoms. Traders carried stories of the Mande Empire to the ears of Andalusi traders beginning in the early 13th century, and by the reign of Al-Hasan, it was accepted as common wisdom that a River of Gold existed to the south of the Juzur al-Kaledat.

The River of Gold idea tempted Andalusi merchants with a number of advantages. The first was the prospect of cutting out the middleman: Al-Andalus received gold and slaves from Subsahara through the hands of intermediaries, namely the veiled Sanhaja who would deal them through Sijilmasa.

But it was the second potential advantage which most tempted merchants. While Al-Andalus continued to deal in Asian goods through trade ties with the Harabids of Egypt and the Turkmens of Rüm, trade through the Mediterranean carried increasing risks in this period, most particularly punitive duties imposed by sailors from Genoa and Venice (Pisa having lapsed into irrelevance after being burned during a war with Narbonne and Genoa over Sardinia). Trade with the south Italian commune of Amalfi provided some relief, the Amalfitans being notably eager to rake in money by selling Moorish luxury goods to the rest of Christendom, but trade routes in the Mediterranean in this period left Moorish traders with fewer options. Trade was also threatened by piracy, including by Berber groups in the central Maghreb.

The advantage the River of Gold offered stemmed from a geographical misconception: It was believed that the river was connected in some way to the Nile. The cartographer Urdun ibn Al-Jayyani believed that it would be possible for a sailor to go to the mouth of the River of Gold and sail straight up the river and all the way out to Egypt, thereby bypassing Genoa and Venice completely. Of course, in reality the Wadi al-Dahab does not actually connect to the Jeliba, and neither connect to the Nile - but geography in this period was often rife with misconceptions.

The development of the Juzur al-Kaledat over the prior 130 years had transformed them into a hub of sugarcane farming, the native Island Berbers having largely been tributized and steadily assimilated.[8] While the island of Liwaril was uninhabited, it had similarly been steadily developed as a source of timber and sugar. But the islands' use had also led to the development of Andalusi shipbuilding. The oceangoing saqin had developed in the 12th century, and by the 13th it had rounded into a more standard design, usually a carvel-built ship of about 50 to 150 tons, with a shallow keel and anywhere from one to three masts carrying lateen sails.[9]

The saqin proved sufficient for mariners to navigate the more capricious currents of the Atlas Ocean and manage the looping course back home. But Andalusi mariners had never had occasion to venture past the cape known as Abu Khatar, or Ra's Bujadur to the Berbers.[10] The actual landform of Abu Khatar itself is not particularly threatening, but the cape marks the point where the Atlas Winds begin, in the form of strong winds ripping out of the northeast to push ships southwesterly. The early 13th-century cartographer Ibn Aarif describes Abu Khatar as the edge of the domain of Liwyatan, or Leviathan, who emerges to inhale ships who enter into his realm. In reality, these winds would prove incredibly valuable at a later time.

By the mid-13th century, however, saqin design had improved to the point that challenging Abu Khatar was more realistic. Mariners would eventually discover that the cape could be circumvented by swinging out and away from the coast as one would do when traveling home from the Kaledats.

The first known account of such travel comes from the records of Al-Jayyani. He recounts the story of Lubb and Sumayl, two brothers from Qadis who navigated past Abu Khatar in 1257. Al-Jayyani notes that the brothers discovered a bay sheltered by a long spit of land, where they met a group of veiled Berbers. The brothers then returned home. It's believed that this was the bay now known as the Bay of Mulathamin, likely named for the predominance of the veiled Sanhaja in the otherwise sparsely-peopled region.[11]

The journey demonstrated that ships could pass Abu Khatar by swinging out widely enough. But the journey remained dangerous, and profits were slim to none: There were no real towns south of Abu Khatar, and while some cartographers believed that more lands lay deep in the ocean, none were yet found, nor immediately evident. And the voyage of Lubb and Sumayl did not discover the mouth of the Dahab or a route to the Jeliba. But adventurous mariners saw the potential to make their own contacts with the veiled Sanhaja, and a few merchants would continue to entertain notions of finding the mouth of the River of Gold.


[1] This is obviously not intended as endorsing my personal beliefs and is more along the lines of a blinkered late-medieval effort by a learned Christian to try and understand Islam and its people. It is here to illustrate contemporary attitudes towards Al-Andalus. In fact there are many cultures who follow Islam at this point, ranging from Arabs to Persians to Berbers to Hispano-Romans to Slavs to Mandinka to Somalis to Turks to Pechenegs to Indo-Aryans to Southeast Asians to Malagasy and beyond.
[2] Some medieval historians are very stupid. Bertrand de Rennes is very stupid.
[3] Medieval Christians noticed that ruling-class Andalusis have basically Spanish features. They also noticed that Saqaliba are a thing.
[4] The treatment of Jews in 13th-century Andalusia hardened a little after Al-Hasan took power, but for the most part Jews are still tolerated, and their treatment is a sight better than what Christendom has to offer them. As always, they do not have what we would consider equality, but neither do the Hizamids persecute them or exile them.
[5] I reiterate: Bertrand de Rennes is very stupid. But he does tell us that a lot of gold is reaching Al-Andalus.
[6] While the Mediterranean trade in Christian slaves has largely been cracked down on and the Italian communes largely give Andalusi merchants a hard time with high duties and tariffs, the city of Amalfi fills the role of Venice to Andalusia's Ottomans: Amalfitan merchants will trade with Muslim merchants, regardless of religion. Merchant-run Amalfi survived much longer than OTL as a nominal subject of the Kingdom of Apulia, but it acts independently and dominates trade with Muslim North Africa and Spain. Amalfi is a much bigger player ITTL than it ever was OTL. Basically if you want Moorish indigo and you're a Christian, it probably came through Amalfi.
[7] OTL, the Banu Hilal's arrival turned North Africa from a net food exporter to a net importer. ITTL, the Banu Hilal went south. This has allowed North Africa to rebound from its post-Fatimid lows. Desertification is less intense in MiaJ-world, though ultimately the Saharan cycle is still a thing.
[8] The Andalusi merchants basically economically colonized the Guanches.
[9] The saqin of the mid-13th century is basically the caravel. Its job is to transport sugar and wood.
[10] Cape Bojador. The Arabic name means "the father of danger."
[11] I'm notoriously bad at languages but this is supposed to indicate that this is the bay where the veiled ones live. And that's how the Almoravids backed into history in a timeline with no Almoravids. In fact the location we're talking about is the Bay of Dakhla.

SUMMARY:
1257: Two brothers from Jayyan round Abu Khatar - Cape Bojador - in a saqin. They end up in a bay in western Sahara, where they meet a group of Sanhaja Berbers. It becomes widely known that rounding Abu Khatar is possible if you swing out far enough.
 
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So as I go forward with this, the one thing I'd pine for is a reasonably accurate translation guide I can use to get from English to Arabic, potentially even Maghrebi Arabic. We're getting to part of the story where I'm going to have to name a lot of things, and while I can theoretically do it with Google Translate, I also am never sure I'm getting syntax right. Maghrebi Arabic is probably closest to the dialect of Arabic spoken in ITTL Al-Andalus, so that'd help to have handy.
 
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Why not make your own arabic up you gone through slavic rule to native iberian rule. These have to had effect on the language.
The contribution of the Saqaliba to the dialect has mostly been in the form of loanwords - e.g. shi is now an acceptable word for a certain type of soup thanks for the Saqaliba wanting someone to make them shchi like back home, ezbah is used to describe a house where farm workers live, neyaz is sometimes used as a title of the hajib with connotations of "second to the Caliph" (from knyaz - some of the Saqaliba would claim to be, effectively, Grand Prince of Al-Andalus), et cetera. But like Gothic, the contributions were not gigantic.

The main languages remain Andalusi Arabic (speakers tend to be diglossic and slip into classical Arabic in higher registers) and Andalusi Romance.
 
So as I go forward with this, the one thing I'd pine for is a reasonably accurate translation guide I can use to get from English to Arabic, potentially even Maghrebi Arabic. We're getting to part of the story where I'm going to have to name a lot of things, and while I can theoretically do it with Google Translate, I also am never sure I'm getting syntax right. Maghrebi Arabic is probably closest to the dialect of Arabic spoken in ITTL Al-Andalus, so that'd help to have handy.
Just ask if you need help. Altough the dialect I speak is a post-hilalian one.
Jebli arabic is probably the only surviving pre-hilalian dialect in morocco and probably the closest to andalusian arabic.

Mulathimayn should be Mulathamin or M'lathmin.
 
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ACT VI Part III: Soft Kitty Diplomacy: The Franco-Andalusian Alliance
Excerpt: Al-Andalus in the Precrossing Period - Gharsiya Jalaleddine, Academia Metropress, AD 1996


There's a lot we can learn from a cat named Houlle.

file_2722_siberian-460x290-460x290.jpg

The chronicle of the French historian, Alain of Rouen, reports that the cat belonged to King Archambaud III of France around 1263. While cats had been scorned during the days of the Great Plague, in some circles they remained quite popular, and it was far from unusual for rulers in the period to own them.

What is more unusual is where Archambaud III got his cat: She came from Al-Andalus.

According to Alain, Houlle - a cat he describes as "an unusual breed, of softest fur and most graceful demeanor" - was brought to the court at Paris by an emissary of "the King of the Moors of Andelucia." This emissary came with gifts for the French king, among them "sweet salts" (likely sugar, then rare in the Christian sphere) and fine silks. But the most notable gift was the cat, whom the emissary gifted to Archambaud "from the litter of the Prince of Andelucia, who is called the hegive,[1] and who speaks for the King of the Moors." Archambaud seems to have responded positively to the gift, perhaps because - as Alain suggests - the French king was something of a cat lover.

From this gift, a few things can be determined. It seems clear that Al-Hasan, hajib at the time, was as fond of cats as many of his predecessors; indeed, love of cats seems to have been quite widespread in Al-Andalus. But the fact that a cat was gifted to a French king suggests not only that Al-Andalus maintained ties of diplomacy with other European governments, but that the ties were sufficient that Al-Hasan would have known that Archambaud liked cats.

The fact that an Andalusi Muslim ruler could gift a French Christian monarch a cat speaks to the extent to which Christendom had come to at least tacitly tolerate Al-Andalus. Muslim Iberia was viewed with a mix of suspicion and curiosity. On the one hand, "the Moors" were viewed as infidels, and particularly zealous Christians tended to depict them as practitioners of heathen magic who dwelled in rightful Christian land. On the other hand, "the Moors" were also exoticized, depicted as learned men and traders, and while some merchants shunned them on religious grounds, others sought them out because they could buy from Muslims things that no Christian could sell them. While a Moorish embassy visiting a royal court may have been uncommon, neither would it be entirely unprecedented. Often, Christian documents from this period describe Al-Andalus as "a faraway land," suggesting that after more than five centuries as an Islamic polity, the region had begun to slide into common perception as exotic and distant, and the idea of Europe ending at the Pyrenees had begun to take root.[2]

These embassies came at a time in which France was surrounded by enemies. Aside from constant tension with the Holy Roman Empire, Archambaud also had to deal with Grand Duke Ramon-Berenguer the Great of Provencia - while nominally Archambaud's vassal as Count of Toulouse, Ramon-Berenguer ruled much of his realm independently and considered his seat at Narbonne to be effectively outside Archambaud's jurisdiction, and he continually infuriated Archambaud by putting on royal airs and exercising control over much of Sardinia and Provence in his own name rather than that of France. Tensions with Navarre over Aquitaine also remained high, with Navarre continuing to claim it through blood ties and the present Duke, William XI, tending to make occasional noises about preferring his relative, King William III of Navarre.[3]

Many of France's enemies were common to Al-Hasan: In particular, Navarre represented a threat to the rebelling territories of Saraqusta, knights from Aquitaine tended to raid across the Pyrenees, and Provencal ships and raiders represented a danger to the northeastern provinces of Al-Andalus.

What emerged is the arrangement known in history as the Franco-Andalusian Alliance. In reality the arrangement was likely informal and consisted more of a mutual understanding that the French and the Andalusis had a common goal in reining in Navarre. Over the late 1260s and into the 1270s, both entities fielded substantial armies against Navarre, with France waging a campaign against William XI of Aquitaine - Archambaud having accused William of withholding taxes and harbouring fugitives, to which William declared Archambaud to be a pretender and supported his cousin Guy of Maine to the throne. When William III drew troops back to support William XI, Al-Hasan's own forces made their move on 'Amr's forces in Saraqusta.

With 'Amr's armies in the field further to the east, the Andalusian forces were able to recapture the Saqlabid stronghold of Madinat as-Salih. The armies split from there, with half marching up the Ebro Valley to begin raiding settlements there. Viguera was burned sometime before 1270, and Andalusian troops settled into a long siege of Logrono even as the eastern army took the fight to 'Amr directly.

While 'Amr boasted a strong army of Saqaliba, ultimately his inability to hire good replacement soldiers - most of the ports were controlled by governors loyal to Al-Hasan at this point - had taken a toll on his manpower, and many of 'Amr's men were older and tired by the time they came to battle. Al-Hasan's forces were able to win a series of victories over the holdout Saqaliba, moving to retake Saraqusta itself in 1271. 'Amr himself was killed in the fighting, but his son Qays held out, retreating to Washqah and holing up his remaining fortresses in the Pyrenean foothills. It is these holdouts that Al-Hasan would fail to secure in his lifetime.

The summer raids out of Al-Andalus would come to focus on Navarre from then onwards, but with the immediate threat past and France achieving success in unseating William XI (Archambaud quickly broke up the giant duchy, creating Dukes of Guyenne and Poitou and a Count of Limousin, handing the titles to family and loyalists), the Franco-Andalusian Alliance rapidly broke down, if indeed it could ever be said to have existed - in fact it was likely at best an informal understanding, and more likely simply a convergence of interests which ended once Navarre's ambitions had been checked somewhat. Beyond keeping Navarre out of their mutual backyards, Al-Hasan seems to have had no interest in actually conquering the northern kingdom, both France and Al-Andalus seeming to prefer it as a sort of buffer state.

In any case, a warming of relations between Al-Andalus and France would end up on hold after 1274, when Al-Hasan died. Not a young man when he came to the throne, he nevertheless reigned for 28 years and left Al-Andalus firmly in the hands of the Andalusis, albeit with parts of 'Amr's realm still not under his control.

But that stability was threatened by the nature of Al-Hasan's death: He died in his sleep, evidently with no sign that he was ever unwell. More to the point, he had declared a successor: Abd ar-Rashid, his grandson by his deceased son Jafar. The boy came to power young, having been a newborn baby at the time of Jafar's death. Abd ar-Rashid was 22 years old at the time of his appointment and confirmation by the startlingly long-lived Caliph Al-Musta'in, and he came to the throne with a number of supporters in high places resentful of the idea of Al-Hasan simply passing power down through the family. It would fall to Abd ar-Rashid to try and take Hizamid al-Andalus from his father's strongman kingdom, held together by charm and deal-making, to a lasting entity.

Thus began the reign of one of the most foundationally important rulers in the history of Muslim Iberia.


[1] The French can't parse "hajib."
[2] France has had visits from Islamic countries before: Charlemagne's one example, and Louis the Pious also apparently received an embassy from the Abbasids.
[3] Fallout from the marriage of Sancha of Navarre into the line of Aquitaine a couple of centuries ago.


SUMMARY:
1263: Hajib Al-Hasan sends a gift of a fluffy cat to King Archambaud III of France.
1265: The Franco-Andalusian Alliance. The two sides informally team up to rein in the ambitions of King William III of Navarre and his relative, Duke William XI of Aquitaine.
1270: Andalusian forces burn Viguera.
1271: Saraqusta falls to Andalusian forces. The rebel leader Qays ibn 'Amr takes the remnants of the anti-Andalusi Saqaliba and continues his rebellion in the Pyrenean foothills, much diminished.
1272: France completes its war for Aquitaine, stripping William XI of his holdings and breaking Aquitaine up into successor fiefdoms helmed by Frenchmen with no family ties to Navarre. With Navarre itself still a useful buffer state for both sides, the Franco-Andalusian Alliance quickly falls apart.
1274: Hajib Al-Hasan dies in his sleep. He is succeeded by his 22-year-old grandson, Abd ar-Rashid.
 
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question will a russia update happen at any point?
also more importantly can you tell me what the relations between sunni middle east, mainly the abbasids are towards Andalusia is like. At this point do the abbasids call them heretics and send messengers so fourth.
Also plz can we have a jewish or woman in andalusia update.
 
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It seems the way to a French king's heart is through his ailurophilia. XD I'm guessing there are more variants of cat breeds across Europe and North Africa compared to OTL? And the continuing development of Andalusian shipping is interesting, though I have a slight twinge at the rising belief in the 'River of Gold'. It's that sort of thinking that led the Spanish to conquer Mesoamerica.
 
question will a russia update happen at any point?
also more importantly can you tell me what the relations between sunni middle east, mainly the abbasids are towards Andalusia is like. At this point do the abbasids call them heretics and send messengers so fourth.
Also plz can we have a jewish or woman in andalusia update.
There was a bit of a Russia update in the last map post, but you basically have three major polities there: The Grand Principality of Galicia (which is ruled by Hungarian-aligned Russians who are Catholic) and the Greek Christian Grand Princes of Smolensk and Novgorod. Galicia is allied with Hungary and tends to join them in playing Cuman khans against each other to keep them from riding over the Carpathians and making a mess. Novgorod is increasingly concerned with the northern fur trade and tends to exact tribute from the various Finnic peoples, and their culture is significantly more Finnicized than the other Russians. While Galicia had a headstart in re-consolidating because of Hungary wresting them from the yoke of the Polovtsi and installing client kings there, Smolensk is rapidly becoming a power centre to rival it, and the Grand Prince of Smolensk tends to not view the Galicians as legitimate.

The biggest change since the mapdate is that the rulers of Smolensk have moved their seat to Vladimir after a bit of a kerfuffle with Novgorod. The new Grand Prince of Vladimir may fancy himself the rightful suzerain of Galicia and Novgorod, but both of those rulers just laugh at him despite Vladimir getting more and more dangerous.

To their east, the Volga Bulgars have been conquered by displaced Yenisei Kyrgyz, who have steadily adopted Islam.



Interestingly, the post-Rus' polities are beginning to come into possession of Chinese silk and other wares through trade down the Road of Saint Sergius.
 
@Planet of Hats will aztecs people and native american people be declared jinns or jinn worshippers by andalusia, as it actually kinda makes sense and is also funny. Will the discovery of america also be placed on the Jinns pushing andalusian sails towards america. Also we need more JINNS in this tl.
 
@Planet of Hats will aztecs people and native american people be declared jinns or jinn worshippers by andalusia, as it actually kinda makes sense and is also funny. Will the discovery of america also be placed on the Jinns pushing andalusian sails towards america. Also we need more JINNS in this tl.
Patience, young grasshopper. We'll get to the New World. Probably not too long from now, even.

Depending on when we get there, the Aztecs may be a huge factor or they may be a small factor. So far, signs point to a significantly earlier arrival, don't they?
 
Patience, young grasshopper. We'll get to the New World. Probably not too long from now, even.

Depending on when we get there, the Aztecs may be a huge factor or they may be a small factor. So far, signs point to a significantly earlier arrival, don't they?
I mean the meso american people the Aztec religion stuff fire, wierd looking gods, human sacrifice, animal worship very similar to the Jinns from islam.
 
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