Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

Im dumb, and had little sleep whats the difference.
In the most simplistic manner possible, the Mu’tazalia constitute a distinct theological grouping while rationalism pertains to reliance on reason as a means of attaining religious truth.

Indeed, the whole traditionalist-rationalist dichotomy within Islamic theology is rather complex.
 
Just finished binge-reading this TL for several days, and I've to say that I love this one.

I have a question from the last entry regarding the Chinese exploration of the Pacific. As they have made contacts with the Haida, do the region suffers from virgin-fields diseases afterwards, or have this part of the Algarves been exposed to it before like the rest of the continent?

The encounter with the Haida and other tribes of this part of the Algarves would be one interesting legend, though, it seems that this won't be the end of them. Not sure if the Wu would have the drive to keep visiting this area for tributes due to the risks however.
 
Last edited:
I'm loving this TL so much
Just finished the binge
But I've got some quick ideas to drop
I'm wondering whose gonna unify the horn of africa
The sultanate of Zeila and warshiekh are a great reflection of the adaal and ajuraan sultanate of OTL
But it would be great to see them both unify
Since it almost happened irl
Also their both majority somali sultanates who have great maritime trade history and even similar language and religion

A man known as Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi, also as imam Ahmed or for his nicknames
Gurey in Somali, gura in afar and gragn/grann in Amhara
The man almost single handedly conquered most of modern day Ethiopia
And putting the city of axum on a successful siege
He managed to take on the mantle of Axum as a muslim the same way ottomans took the mantle of Rome as muslims
Maybe this could be possible In this timeline too
As for colonizing deeper parts of the continent
The somali pastoralists had already started doing that for centuries slowly making inroads all the way deep into modern day kenya and ethiopia
Maybe in timeline they could go beyond
 

Attachments

  • Eu7Yb80XYAE2kY3.jpg
    Eu7Yb80XYAE2kY3.jpg
    371.7 KB · Views: 110
More thoughts on the future of the Wu, to add to the ones I've posted before:

In the AH I've read (which is both "a lot" and "not as much as you'd think") every "present day" China under a "native" ideology ends up being some form of conservative Confucian, likely a monarchy too. So one would think Daoism or Buddhism or some dug-up Hundred Schools philosophy could be the answer, dressed up to produce some progressive or even revolutionary rival system... but since their thoughts on proper governance combined add up to far, far less than the two millennia of Confucian theory and practice, trying to weld your desired ideology out of those will probably just produce some fairly common Western ideas in silken garb, probably introduced by a "bold new thinker" self insert character. Even to reach a new result, it's best to start with where the conversation is already at, and that's Confucianism.

So it's worth saying that Confucianism is a very optimistic system. No irreversible Fall of Man-- the state of perfection described in the mythologies of the sage-kings can be attained again, and the only question is how. Daoism comes as an investigation into sagehood in particular-- even worldly authority or the pursuit of it might be something that gets in a seeker's way. Confucianism starts instead with social relations, considering the perfection of the past as the sum of the ideal relationships among people-- which are rediscovered and preserved through ritual. And preserved in books of course, which begs the question of what would happen if those books were destroyed-- but the evolution of Neo-Confucianism at the turn of the millennium also involved a metaphysical turn that placed the principles it was trying to (re)discover within the human mind itself. The wisdom of the past is reduplicated in every person, and the goal of study is not only social progress but self actualization-- in fact even the study might be optional (since human potential is so great), although that line of thought never made it into state orthodoxy. It was pretty popular among the people though, since no matter how much a new dynasty might promote itself by establishing new public schools, there were never enough and since maintaining them was a local concern, many localities just... didn't.

So, that's nice-- but since the perfect system of antiquity was an absolute monarchy, reaching perfection again requires that as well. There is the caveat that Confucian scholars expect the king to be respectful of advice, to a degree ranging from presiding over a collective leadership to complete abdication of day to day responsibilities-- but even that is only provisional, as a truly perfect king would himself be the perfect scholar as well. There wouldn't be any need to appeal to any alternative source of sovereignty, much less "the people"-- leading to a situation like OTL's Imperial Russia or China, where even though a particular state ideology/religion is totally unrivaled for centuries its proponents are so accustomed to appealing upward that they don't build any kind of popular institutions at all, and so are powerless against any sudden change in government.

So, how do you wrest some kind of alternate system of governance from this? I've thought about it in the context of other timelines, or projects of my own that I'll never write, and I think the answer is pessimism-- a suspicion that the door to perfection is closed forever, or at least that the path won't be the same as before. That's a very hard sell-- made easier in OTL by the disasters of the 1800s and apparent success of foreign systems, but that doesn't apply in TTL's strong and industrializing China.

But really, I think industrialization is enough to bring about such an ideological crisis, even without a backdrop of weakness and humiliation (see also: Imperial Germany's social welfare laws). Industrialization challenges the status quo on several fronts:
1. The assumption that in a subsistence-agriculture economy (there are definitely other profitable activities but this is how most of the population gets by) that the people will take care of themselves as long as they're not taxed too much or driven out of business... doesn't really apply when increasing proportions of the population now depend on wage labor and provision of services by others in an urban environment. A village is no longer a self sufficient world unto itself, it's almost absurdly dependent on outside forces now.
2. A traditional econony means traditional social relations, and ones that can be analogized to family ties-- in a subsistence agriculture household the workforce is of course the family itself. Not so for the industrialized economy, where a new array of very temporary social ties determine how things work.
3. The winners of industrialization and their far more numerous supporters (either out of conviction or just because it's their job) will expect and likely receive a high priority in state decision-making, but there will be no philosophical basis for their prominence. There should only be the ruler and his people, with the provisional intermediate category of scholars striving for a better system-- so then what is this other intermediate category of people with seemingly no program or concern outside of currently popular issues, or even nothing besides their own gain? This is most similar to Japan's case-- the emergence of a class of soldier-landowners with no direct parallel in China or Korea pushed the "official" government of Japan (its laws derived from those of the Tang dynasty, and in force until the Meiji Restoration) into irrelevance, while the provisional networks of authority intended to regulate the affairs of this new class instead turned into the actual government of the whole country.
4. Absolute power is of course best in clean hands, so personal incorruptibility plays a very important part in the education of future holders of power. Personal morality is so important to making absolute power tolerable that any time not spent on it is a distraction at best and a derailment at worst. But as the laundry list of things to learn grows ever longer and careers become increasingly specialized, will it still be possible to maintain that well, even if the system guards its privileges closely, at least it produces people who can be trusted with power? Granted, this isn't really a point against Confucianism as such, since even liberalism gives itself the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things. Its checks and balances might help save the system from destruction from within, and provide the best guarantee for peaceful transfers of power out of any system. But although "elections produce democratic results" is it more democratic for a legislator to vote their conscience or to vote along with their party? Even on something so important, there are no uniform expectations.
5. A scholar excluded from power could convince himself that while people may not be ready for his ideas or personality now, his time would come-- either the ruler's favor would fall on someone else, or there would be a rebellion in need of advisors and promising a swift ascent to the heights of power. Sure enough, the Ming of OTL ended up being a very ideological project in that way, with a group of Neo-Confucians seeing in a particular peasant rebel an instrument to remake society-- only for that rebel to decide he'd learned quite enough to carry on the rest of the revolution himself on becoming emperor, and everyone else had better make way or lose their head. Of course, in an industrializing society the world seems to be different every decade, and change is only accelerating. When one wrong move could have fatal consequences, can a scholar wait patiently for the winds to change in his favor (literally something Confucius and contemporaries were praised for doing) or should he, with whatever allies he can find, defy this wisdom and take matters into his own hands?

The system could still remain the same as before, with significant additional requirements (e.g. that scholars concentrate on more modern subjects as well)-- or even this could be considered insufficient, as advocates of popular advisory councils point out how top-down governance and favoritism determining what the "top" looks like ensure that good ideas (setting aside what ideas are even considered good by which segments of the population) may not always bubble to the top. Although, as Iran's government shows, one can allow the existence of popular councils while subjecting them to the oversight of a very different system. Or, for something more radical-- if a perfect society is the sum of its relationships, maybe change could be bottom up instead of top down, and so the people might displace the ruler as the ultimate source of sovereignty. More radical still-- if it's private property that stands in the way of a proper relationship between ruler and people and/or in the way of the people's prosperity, then private property should be abolished! (Japanese militarism in its early 1930s form, forced to develop a program for governing Manchuria, manifested a hatred for private... well, private everything while repurposing Confucian vocabulary to describe its ideal society.) Or in some Hegelian turn, an authentically Confucian approach to some problem could abstract itself out of Confucianism entirely, becoming a "secular" ideology that conserves its strict internal rules while priding itself on universal applicability... though for that it would need to criticize every single rival system, which might lead them to make some interesting analogies between Confucianism and Islam*.

Should there be a limit to how crazy things get? I don't think so. No revolution is final, or totally free from the prospect of Restoration. If England can follow up all the wild possibilities of the Civil War years by just turning back into a kingdom again for the next four hundred years, I'm sure China can do whatever it wants and still settle into whatever state is canon for TTL's present day. Plus, there's the possibility of lines of inquiry not fully explored in China instead reaching full fruition elsewhere.

*How would such an analogy go? Perhaps something like this. In the East Asian triad of faiths there's one to supply precepts for government, one to guide the striving of the anxious soul toward an end to its troubles, and one to inquire into the nature of the world and existence in general. Of course there's significant overlap but generally each has its niche and together they are complementary. The other premier civilization of MiaJ-world, of course, substitutes complementarity for unity within a single school, Islam. Governance, the fate of the soul, and the nature of creation are all within its domain. However, within this unity there are many tendencies-- there are scholars who make prescriptions for the state like Confucians, those who build autonomous institutions like the Buddhists, and those who retreat from the world in search of better answers like the Daoists. The unity of Xihai civilization contains three very different spheres of activity, and they remain distinct within. Of course there's another side to Xihai, the Christian side-- but is Christianity also a complete package? Perhaps not, since even when Catholicism tried to make inroads into China it attacked "paganism" while leaving "law" alone... law can remain pagan (Roman, Confucian, Napoleonic) while Christianity focuses on the spheres claimed by Daoism and Buddhism. So then, if this is the universal tendency of human belief (and a TTL observer may think it is, fallacies and all) then some new belief aspiring to replace all of the above must surpass the failed experiment of Christianity, and have not just two but three spheres of activity (a metaphysics, a psychology, and a sociology) within itself-- and each must be the most prolific and fruitful of its kind in the whole world. The result, I hope, won't necessarily be an atheist ideology-- only one with answers different to those traditionally believed.
 
Last edited:
Now I'm imagining some sort of Neo-Mohism movement popping up in industrialising China as part of the innovative force pushing against the conservativism of Neo-Confucianism
 
Now I'm imagining some sort of Neo-Mohism movement popping up in industrialising China as part of the innovative force pushing against the conservativism of Neo-Confucianism
Mohism's emphasis on unconditional love for others (instead of love ranked in order of familial closeness) is probably better suited for an industrial society where family ties are less helpful (less guarantee of being able to succeed in your father's trade) and more harmful than before (nepotism).

However, in ultimately calling for an absolute monarchy and accompanying (meritocratic) hierarchy that measures its effectiveness on the standard of wealth (national wealth and the people's standard of living) as a common metric shared by subjects of all cultures... it might ironically turn out to be most useful to the industrialists. I mean here's a philosophy that calls for less clan favoritism, among bosses but also among workers (in OTL China labor organizations were formed out of people coming from the same village or region, banding together to find work and look out for each other); so long as the national wealth is growing then morality is upheld, something the industrialists already pride themselves on; industrialists will probably already believe themselves to be selected by merit, viewing success in the market as a function of their skills and calling for leading officials to be "skilled [and pragmatic]" instead of "rabble rousers" or "insufferable goody two shoes"; and since frugality is a virtue the government can be scolded when it drifts away from a balanced budget and starts raising taxes to make up the difference. I suppose it's all very Tory and Whig; or less charitably, our Mohist "progressives" here look more like the Spanish or Italian liberals, using their new ideas to build a system managed exclusively in their favor, and declaring their enemies (regionalists, the "irrational", or "people who don't contribute") as enemies of progress.

Making it "neo" could still involve dropping the absolute-monarchy part, and might give you something like the British Enlightenment thinkers-- Bentham, Mill, Smith, and so on. But as long as the "clan solidarity bad" and "everybody likes wealth" planks remain, you end up with the ideology that, compared to all others (Legalism with its state-directed economy, Daoism with its more extreme frugality, Confucianism with its... ongoing debate about commerce) burdens the industrialists the least. Their social role is assured to be good, so all the have to do is be good Mohists on an individual level-- endow a university or three to show how altruistic they are, and let a non-relative inherit their company in true meritocratic fashion. The ideas that were "progressive" during their period of struggling to the top might seem "elitist" once they're already there-- all in all, a perfect system for a *July Monarchy.

I suppose Mohism could be used in a case for anti-racism: unconditional love plus the assumption that because different cultures have different traditions utilitarianism can be a meeting point, as opposed to "we won't have different traditions if they just learn ours, then we'll have a common moral code for everyone". Then again, utilitarianism could also be used to argue that colonialism good actually, look at all these railways. Plus Chinese imperial attitudes (although who knows how things would be under the Wu, which desires not periodic tribute but a constant stream of raw materials and cheap labor from the rest of the world) isn't really racist, just assimilationist-- the emperor's realm is the best on earth but anyone can be part of it, and educating conquered peoples and having them not only take the civil service exams but succeed in them was considered a priority. Even if in a lot of cases the insularity of these other cultures (e.g. in the hill-lands of the southwest, home to the Miao/Hmong and others) meant that local elites preferred to be recognized as self-governing chieftains rather than becoming a more standard part of the Imperial system.

Another note, we'll see if it's the last: since there's no conquest dynasties or ideological reactions to them, this might be how we introduce aspirational dynasty names (Yuan onward) over the "feudal region" names. Da Jian (the Great Inclusion) might work for some flavor of Mohist government.
 
Last edited:
There's also the whole fact that Buddhism is another aspect that could be the 'pro-trade/cosmopolitanism' movement given the need for the theoretical pro-Buddhist dynasty to support Buddhist monasteries and pilgrimages to India... could also work as a third political party actually...
 
There's also the whole fact that Buddhism is another aspect that could be the 'pro-trade/cosmopolitanism' movement given the need for the theoretical pro-Buddhist dynasty to support Buddhist monasteries and pilgrimages to India... could also work as a third political party actually...
Oh it had better lean into the cosmopolitanism, not like it would win any points with the nativists anyways-- being foreign and all, even if it's been in one's own country for over a thousand years. But what's really galling about Buddhism is how it turns up its nose at the state, assembling its own private spaces and networks and streams of income. Among the East Asian schools it is the only "church", not only a school of thought but a set of standardized, self sufficient institutions. That independence helps in times when the state is weak or nonexistent, during which monasteries get extra points by running hospitals and schools; but when peace and civilian governance return, so does high- or low-brow sniping at the monasteries' absurd wealth, "alien" teachings, and possible disloyalty/evasion of responsibilities. And, well, at least the absurd wealth part is true.

Buddhism suffers from success, making it a natural target when the state is being refounded on new principles and demands unconditional acceptance and loyalty (and resources) from everyone. The 1300s replacement of it by Confucianism as the Korean state's preferred ideology itself resembles the succession of the Tang, probably China's most cosmopolitan (and most Buddhist) dynasty by the Song in which Neo-Confucianism developed. Centuries later, riots in mid-1800s Japan aimed at removing Buddhism from shared shrines and rededicating them to the kami alone, carting away the many bronze bells and other treasures, while subjecting the shrines' leadership to the government. All the same, it's nothing that wouldn't be recognized in England's dissolution of the monasteries and France's persecution of the Huguenots-- homogenization and enrichment, two birds with one stone.

The political (or even just economic) prominence of Buddhist monks or monasteries will be taken as proof of its enemies' arguments against it-- but attacking the monasteries, even if that's something states are likely to do, will still offend the lay following. And a politically prominent lay following, using their religious heritage and the experience of ignorant and self-serving attacks on them as unifying experiences, will both be a much more acceptable (its your own people after all, which also forces you to confront the fact that Buddhism isn't so "alien" as it seems) and a much more effective political force than the monastic community could be.
 
Last edited:
So I actually am alive, believe it or not. I've been bashing my head in vain against crippling writer's block for months but I think it's starting to break.

I feel like it's time to move out of this late-medieval/early-post-medieval roadblock I'm stuck at.
 
So I actually am alive, believe it or not. I've been bashing my head in vain against crippling writer's block for months but I think it's starting to break.

I feel like it's time to move out of this late-medieval/early-post-medieval roadblock I'm stuck at.
I get that, you go marching into some topic after something interesting, and then the spark winks out like a firefly in the dark and you're left knee deep in the reeds.

I liked the future/present-day flashes. One way to skip ahead to "early modern," if that's more interesting, might be to do exactly that and then tell the story of the Asmarids in polemical or revisionist retrospectives. Be as mean or florid as you like, and all of it can be retconned later by "this historian was biased and also wrong here's what actually happened"
 
I get that, you go marching into some topic after something interesting, and then the spark winks out like a firefly in the dark and you're left knee deep in the reeds.

I liked the future/present-day flashes. One way to skip ahead to "early modern," if that's more interesting, might be to do exactly that and then tell the story of the Asmarids in polemical or revisionist retrospectives. All of it can be retconned later by "this historian was biased and also wrong here's what actually happened"
What's been throwing my planning for a loop is that I've felt I've had to push off the widespread proliferation of the early steam engine to a point that strains credibility and I've been dithering on when to pull the trigger on it catching outside of China. I think I have a path taking shape.
 
What's been throwing my planning for a loop is that I've felt I've had to push off the widespread proliferation of the early steam engine to a point that strains credibility and I've been dithering on when to pull the trigger on it catching outside of China. I think I have a path taking shape.
Follow it, if a butterfly already flap let it up forward
 
Considering how Chinese immigration to Southeast Asia worked-- large communities, or at least large teams of working men, seamlessly transferring work habits and techniques from abroad-- I think any spread within the Chinese sphere of immigration (and deeper adoption by curious native investors among the nobility) is credible as long as the battle is won within... not even China, but the zone that supplies the most immigrants to SEA. So just Fujian really.

Now will Andalus allow teams of Chinese to start and dominate industries in their far colonies like this? It might be the price of development.
 
What's been throwing my planning for a loop is that I've felt I've had to push off the widespread proliferation of the early steam engine to a point that strains credibility and I've been dithering on when to pull the trigger on it catching outside of China. I think I have a path taking shape.
I agree with Nivek. See where that path leads because it would be interesting to see how the rest of the world acquires steam.

Now will Andalus allow teams of Chinese to start and dominate industries in their far colonies like this? It might be the price of development.
As of now, Andalusian (or even European) presence in Southeast Asia is rather limited aside from trade ships. Al-Mubaraka is no Philippines, as the former acts more like a port for Andalusi ships than a real established colony. With Ma-I states under Chinese tributary status, it would be extremely hard for the Asmarids to try and invade them, lest they lose their privileges to increasingly competitive Christian states.

I think the only way we will see Chinese people within Andalusi (or Andalusi-aligned territory) is if the ITTL-Manila Galleon route is open and the Otomi invited Chinese workers and artisans to join his court and spread from there.
 
As of now, Andalusian (or even European) presence in Southeast Asia is rather limited aside from trade ships.
What about Chinese traveling to Africa? Cape Town needed its Malays.

The Wu might (they still think they can strive for agrarian utopia, poor things) try to ban people from the coastline or something to keep people and technology from getting out, but industrialization as a social phenomenon means increasing regimentation of daily life-- if you even get to participate, you might spend a few years unemployed. Plenty of reasons to say nah, I'm out, I don't care if I gotta take the underground railway into Yunnan and out through Burma. Those people are going to go everywhere.
 
I got a mad idea,so mad could work but feel a reach...a Chinese Muslim doing the Hajj and being of the scholar class he discussed with others Muslim about the steam engine and snowball for there?
 
What about Chinese traveling to Africa? Cape Town needed its Malays.
Probably not. The colony is probably not that developed to be attractive to Chinese migrants, being an agricultural/pastoral colony. Maybe if they discovered gold or diamonds earlier then that would vastly accelerate this process, but we shall see.

The Wu might (they still think they can strive for agrarian utopia, poor things) try to ban people from the coastline or something to keep people and technology from getting out, but industrialization as a social phenomenon means increasing regimentation of daily life-- if you even get to participate, you might spend a few years unemployed.
I think this would only apply to engineers, metalsmiths, or other educated/skilled officials as they slowly realize the advantages of steam. Of course, that won't work forever and refined versions of that technology will eventually proliferate globally.
 
I got a mad idea,so mad could work but feel a reach...a Chinese Muslim doing the Hajj and being of the scholar class he discussed with others Muslim about the steam engine and snowball for there?
Just think about the speaking fees they could charge... [Edit: I was fully imagining a Ted talk here. Disrupt Innovation 1453]

I think this would only apply to engineers, metalsmiths, or other educated/skilled officials as they slowly realize the advantages of steam. Of course, that won't work forever and refined versions of that technology will eventually proliferate globally.
Fair enough-- China's [edit: meant early 1900s] railways and great coal complexes only needed a generation or two of foreign foremen to kick off a self sustaining loop of people teaching people, and more importantly earning tons of money. But that's what I mean, the agent of "global proliferation" is the migration of people with direct experience of the technology, but also the routines of the shop floor and the standards of the product. Call them engineers, smiths, the "educated"-- or, foremen drawn from promoted proletarians. Industrialization blurs the boundaries and one might intimately understand lessons the other knows only in theory.
 
Last edited:
As much of a cop-out as it sounds like, my efforts to get back into writing crashed headlong into me getting flipping COVID early in the month and spending a week and a half on my back. Ugh. Fate does not want me to pull the lid off this darn jar.
 
Top