Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

They still need to get the Roman/Italian peninsula and Beat Romania....
Given the massive army/navy that the Roman Empire wields, only Hungary and Egypt stand in the Bataids' way towards them conquering Italy or the Osterreich of the HRE in the future, and I don't like their odds. Even Ifriqiya could be under threat of being under the submission of the Romans, despite Andalusian naval superiority in the region. I doubt that the Romanians and the Genoans could fight head to head against the Romans invading Meridiana or even Italy proper in a serious campaign, especially under a gifted Emperor.

It took multi-nation alliances/coalitions to fully contain Ottoman interests both in sea and on land. I can fully expect the same for the Romans, who might be fielding larger armies and fleets than the OTL Turks.
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I have a question about the Wiki: Are we allowed to help contribute to the pages, because I'd love to help!
Here's an emblem of the Asmarids in the same vein as the OTL Marinids, since this was easy to do.
AsmaridEmblem.png
 
The Byzantines were called Romans as the East Roman Empire by the people of their times, Byzantines is a modern term to differentiate the old Roman Empire more from the later Eastern Roman mainly Greek, not Latin influenced one.
I call them ERE...as that was they where.

Given the massive army/navy that the Roman Empire wields, only Hungary and Egypt stand in the Bataids' way towards them conquering Italy or the Osterreich of the HRE in the future, and I don't like their odds. Even Ifriqiya could be under threat of being under the submission of the Romans, despite Andalusian naval superiority in the region. I don't think that the Romanians and the Genoans could fight head to head against the Romans invading Meridiana or even Italy proper, especially under a gifted Emperor.

It took multi-nation alliances/coalitions to fully contain Ottoman interests both in sea and on land. I can fully expect the same for the Romans, who might be fielding larger armies and fleets than the OTL Turks.
I would like see that happen now
 
But they're the roman empire, they can't be that one without the first one or a pretender calling himself rome.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/mof-16-the-caliphate-of-rûm.158514/#post-3406587 Maybe this could be Bataid dream?
The MiaJ Eastern Roman Empire / OTL Byzantine Empire still had to deal with a pretender in the HRE and they still call themselves the Roman Empire, because they know they are true Romans. It's arguably the same for the Bataids and the Romans/Rumani when it comes to the HRE and Romania.

Unlike in OTL, Rhomania/Rumaniyah endures, and I don't think they will let these unwashed barbarians tarnish the legacy of Rome, for they are also true Romans.
 
The Byzantines were called Romans as the East Roman Empire by the people of their times, Byzantines is a modern term to differentiate the old Roman Empire more from the later Eastern Roman mainly Greek, not Latin influenced one.
my post said they called themselves romans just fine so I don't get what you're trying to say here
 
But they're the roman empire, they can't be that one without the first one or a pretender calling himself rome.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/mof-16-the-caliphate-of-rûm.158514/#post-3406587 Maybe this could be Bataid dream?
Bataids have to deal with a wild Iran who has now leader who actively wants a fight. If the you can't wage war against muslims still exist relying on alexander legacy may become more important to legitimise an invasion to knock out persia. Bataids need forces to keep persia in check. Bataids can't move west till the east is in check now.

just reread the mapdate ignore that turns out the bataids are even more poweful "Hungry and rapidly transforming into a blackpowder force to be reckoned with. Not even the rise of the Irbisids to their east and changes in Egypt have been enough to take a bite out of them - indeed, they've expanded up the coast of the Black Sea." Even expansionst iran can't threaten them. no your right Bataids should make some moves but rather against muslims than the HRE. Iran from the map update seems actually a glass canon they could take all of iran if they play carefully also Egypt needs to brought to heal time to bring north africa under control they are allowing heretics to gain more influence.

@Planet of Hats please when you do update could we get some mini middle east focus posts Iran, and Egypt have only been map updates and when you have
a ruler called the snow leopard khan you can't just not give us more details also the bataids have largely been ignored they need some attention they held off three major muslim powers, conquered one broke the second and kept the third in check, and still have power left over. Egypt in otl also became the main muslim arab power of this surely this is still happening here the rise of egypt, also do persian even exist anymore?
 
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Iran from the map update seems actually a glass canon they could take all of iran if they play carefully also Egypt needs to brought to heal time to bring north africa under control they are allowing heretics to gain more influence.
What are you specifying about Egypt? North Africa is Sunni, not Shia, but Egypt is on the verge of switching allegiances to the Umayyads to maintain their own independence. The Bayadhids trying to keep themselves in the Roman sphere is only going to lead them to being conquered and annexed since they virtually have no allies without the support of Al-Andalus. At least there's a chance of an independent Egypt if they do bend the knee to the Umayyad Caliph in Qurtubah.

As for Iran and the Irbisids, they're still a pretty huge threat as a nomadic steppe army to the Roman Empire, although the Bataids' army composition is probably the most favorable to fighting the steppe armies in like ever, having enough cavalry and horse archers to contend with the Tabans, especially in a region like Mesopotamia, where I think both nations would contend with.

Does persian even exist anymore?
Persians obviously still exist even with the conquest of the majority of the Mezinid territories by the Irbisid Tabans. They're a resilient people that have survived multiple invasions both in MiaJ and in OTL (especially OTL), all while absorbing their conquerors or influencing their neighbors through Persianization. A good example is probably the Nimanni Sultanate, who are pretty similar to the Mughals as a Persianate steppe group.

I still hope that the political instability caused by the Irbisids and the Bataids does cause some Persians to migrate to places like Hindustan or Al-Andalus, since they could be the main drivers behind the blending between Eastern and Western Islam, but who knows?
 
No amount of invasions will cause Persians to stop existing. Persian culture and language have survived an endless array of disruptions over the millennia.

This is actually true in general of many cultures, barring massive die-offs. Ruling classes can change. The common people stay the same, beyond a few adjustments to new circumstances.
 
What are you specifying about Egypt? North Africa is Sunni, not Shia, but Egypt is on the verge of switching allegiances to the Umayyads to maintain their own independence. The Bayadhids trying to keep themselves in the Roman sphere is only going to lead them to being conquered and annexed since they virtually have no allies without the support of Al-Andalus. At least there's a chance of an independent Egypt if they do bend the knee to the Umayyad Caliph in Qurtubah.
im refering to the different schools of thought as heretics as i've been reading alot of 40k today. Also both sides are coming to very heated arguments over theology. Also andalusia will not be able to muster a army big enough and get it sent egypt to protect if bataids are a military power foremost.

As for Iran and the Irbisids, they're still a pretty huge threat as a nomadic steppe army to the Roman Empire, although the Bataids' army composition is probably the most favorable to fighting the steppe armies in like ever, having enough cavalry and horse archers to contend with the Tabans, especially in a region like Mesopotamia, where I think both nations would contend with.
The snow leopard khan update states its a general turkic style kingdom so will most likely collapse after his death. Irbisids don't exist anymore the Nasrids replaced them and they have already lost libya. North africa is weak bataids have a valid they should move in.

Btw its been a 100 years since Baghdad fell to the bataids, eastern islam who is rightful caliph game should be over so who is eastern islam caliph, do the indians, persians, turks and arabs recognise Constantinople.
 
Honestly a possibility I'm really interested in is the Bataids not taking the road of there is one Roman Emperor all others are mere pretenders, because of course there were frequently more than one emperor in antiquity, the east was just pre-eminent, and when the west "fell" the Byzantines saw it as they assumed authority as singular emperors over the entire indivisible empire again. There was always the possibility of a Byzantine emperor creating an emperor in the west again, should they want to. So instead of outright denying that the holy Roman emperor could ever be Roman emperor, the Bataids could be pushing the ideology that of course the holy Roman emperor can be brother emperor in the west as long as they accept the east as their superiors. It would definitely add a variable to German politics if a particular prince is promised that should he defect and join the Bataids, he will be confirmed as brother emperor in the west.

Or if the Romanians decide that they need to secure that Bataid alliance against Asmarids/ the holy Roman emperor, they could support Bataid expansion into Hungary and maybe even northern Italy if it means that they'll be recognised as western emperor by Bataid vassals.
 
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Bataids allie the papacy to help them fend off the germans.
Also got a critism of polandball art why is urgrell not a cube clearly they are special they have been able to hide their existence from andalusia and romania.
 
Honestly a possibility I'm really interested in is the Bataids not taking the road of there is one Roman Emperor all others are mere pretenders, because of course there were frequently more than one emperor in antiquity, the east was just pre-eminent, and when the west "fell" the Byzantines saw it as they assumed authority as singular emperors over the entire indivisible empire again. There was always the possibility of a Byzantine emperor creating an emperor in the west again, should they want to. So instead of outright denying that the holy Roman emperor could ever be Roman emperor, the Bataids could be pushing the ideology that of course the holy Roman emperor can be brother emperor in the west as long as they accept the east as their superiors. It would definitely add a variable to German politics if a particular prince is promised that should he defect and join the Bataids, he will be confirmed as brother emperor in the west.

Or if the Romanians decide that they need to secure that Bataid alliance against Asmarids/ the holy Roman emperor, they could support Bataid expansion into Hungary and maybe even northern Italy if it means that they'll be recognised as western emperor by Bataid vassals.
Doubtful that the Bataids could ever agree to recognize another Roman claimant as a legitimate Roman Emperor at the moment, even if it was a subordinate role, since it cuts into their own legitimacy as the Roman Empire, as very few polities accept them as the successor state to the ERE. Plus, Guy the Great was right in that by claiming the Roman Province and/or Italia, there is a basis in claiming the legacy of Rome. The Bataids obviously wants those territories back, since there's probably a degree of revanchism amongst the Romans against the Latin states, while acquisition of those territories also increases their own legitimacy as the true Roman Empire.

If the Bataids ever try to reach out to Emperor Adolph or King Guy with an offer to be the Emperor or King of the West like Odoacer was, both would immediately reject this regardless of title since they know that it would mean recognizing the Bataids as their superiors and they would never kneel before Muslims. They also claim to be the true inheritors of Rome as well, so all three powers are at an impasse. A three way conflict on Italia might be inevitable because of this, with Al-Andalus and other polities added into the mix as well.

Your proposition about a claimant allying with the Bataids in a civil war/succession crisis is extremely interesting though, and it could actually happen in the future, since they might be okay with stripping their own reputation and legitimacy as the Roman Empire as long as they have a chance at the throne.

Bataids allie the papacy to help them fend off the germans.
Why would the Bataids ever respect the Papacy and their sovereignty over Rome and the Papal States? They're probably the state that cares the least about whatever influence and power that the Pope has and have all the reasons to take the city of Rome for themselves.
 
Why would the Bataids ever respect the Papacy and their sovereignty over Rome and the Papal States? They're probably the state that cares the least about whatever influence and power that the Pope has and have all the reasons to take the city of Rome for themselves.
HRE is much more powerful and did push back the bataids. Bataids can make papacy support their true roman claim. Also how is Bataids going to get to rome? through land requires defeating HRE and hungary, by sea means facing the merchant republics.
 
HRE is much more powerful and did push back the bataids. Bataids can make papacy support their true roman claim. Also how is Bataids going to get to rome? through land requires defeating HRE and hungary, by sea means facing the merchant republics.
Obviously the Bataids are going to have to demolish Hungary in order to secure a land route towards the Osterreich or Italy proper, and they can't exactly hold prolonged campaigns in Italy by sea without securing the entire Eastern Med. Hungary, Egypt, and Persia would most likely be the first targets of the Roman Empire in the late 15th/16th century, similar to how Selim I and Suleiman each conquered Egypt and Rhodes to secure their core territories before moving westward. The fates of those states and the aftermath of such events is what's going to define the Bataids either as a boogeyman or a real existential threat on Western Europe.

Also, how would the Bataids make the Pope support their claim unless it's through force of arms? Even though the Pope does not like the Geroldsecks, if the Pope bows down before a Muslim power like Rumaniyah, then the Catholic Church's reputation would completely tank in Christian Europe and anger a whole lot of Catholic states. A smarter move in the case of a Bataid invasion on the Papal States would be fleeing to Avenhon/Avignon, since the Romanians get the support of the Pope while the Pope has the opportunity to gain more influence and power without the oversight of the Geroldseck Emperors.
 
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