As say before put the border much northern, so having the river as the perfect defense perimeter.
Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline
- Thread starter Planet of Hats
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- al-andalus cordoba timeline
Does Santiago not have any armies in the field also what about all there knights? They weren't killed. They are still superior to the normal andalusian soldiers.
Btw will the bataids send some congratulations letter to the andalusians?
Also will andalusia get a french, santiagoian princess or both as tribute now?
Didn't an earlier update imply that Santiago is a part of Andalusia by the modern day? Maybe they conquer the whole thing or at least split it with Navarre? Don't have to worry about defending against raids from Santiago if there's no Santiago.
If Andalus doesn't wish to integrate the entire Duero region, it could simply Navarrize it-- entrust it to cooperative kings. I'm predicting postwar borders as Valladolid/Valdestillas to Navarre as a feather in the new King's cap, Andalus taking the stretch from Salamanca to Zamora (depriving the North of the universities, or at least forcing them to relocate), and then the remainder of Santiago being split into Galicia and Leon again. Galicia may simply be a new Santiago (even if the ruling family changes it will be drawn from the same aristocracy) but Leon... Gustavo III Austermane is a king in need of a kingdom, and his mother Ynes is of the former Santiago royal family-- I'm sure she can help along the nobility in accepting the new order.
The danger there, though, is that in arming/defending a client kingdom they'll simply be teaching them how to use advanced weaponry for a future rebellion-- though maybe the way Santiago becomes a part of modern-day Andalusia is that these puppets try to reunite and are annexed for fear that they'll do it again. But then again, I'm not too sure if the north is Andalusi by the modern day-- this post on Guillermo and his modern impact credits extremists in "the north" with a bombing in Batalyaws and then says the same were "brought to justice," but it's not as though similar efforts on the part of the US have led to annexations of Afghanistan or whatever.
EDIT: The close-up map of Iberia does say that Santiago keeps its shell-and-lion banner through "most of the Middle Ages", but maybe the Middle Ages are considered to end earlier TTL with so many hallmarks of the Early Modern Era coming a century earlier... after which Santiago either changes its banner or ceases to exist altogether.
The danger there, though, is that in arming/defending a client kingdom they'll simply be teaching them how to use advanced weaponry for a future rebellion-- though maybe the way Santiago becomes a part of modern-day Andalusia is that these puppets try to reunite and are annexed for fear that they'll do it again. But then again, I'm not too sure if the north is Andalusi by the modern day-- this post on Guillermo and his modern impact credits extremists in "the north" with a bombing in Batalyaws and then says the same were "brought to justice," but it's not as though similar efforts on the part of the US have led to annexations of Afghanistan or whatever.
EDIT: The close-up map of Iberia does say that Santiago keeps its shell-and-lion banner through "most of the Middle Ages", but maybe the Middle Ages are considered to end earlier TTL with so many hallmarks of the Early Modern Era coming a century earlier... after which Santiago either changes its banner or ceases to exist altogether.
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I second the independent Galicia idea, which might get the Christians an incentive to look westward.
Corunna would definitely call for naval advancements/exploration of the oceans after how humiliatingly quickly the city was taken, and the inland kings probably don't want to fight another two-front war either. But with both the army and navy in need of resources and Galicia only having so many to give, I don't think they can invest in the navy unless they commit to aligning with Andalus (securing a treaty to set the boundaries of oceanic fishing zones and the like) and avoiding hostilities at any cost. If Galicia is more vindictive, they're probably better off finding an ally willing to defend their coasts (France?) while they create an army/fortress line capable of holding off Andalus until said ally arrives and helps.
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I must say, the discussion surrounding the future is really interesting, but this...
I really want to hear some of myths and stories circulating about muslims now in this period.
@Planet of Hats can you give us an insight into how the christian world views the muslims and there new gunpowder. Please tell me they see magicians in the west and evil in the east.
@Planet of Hats can you give us an insight into how the christian world views the muslims and there new gunpowder. Please tell me they see magicians in the west and evil in the east.
Maybe a chapter about a french spy reporting back about Isbili or Qurthuba.
Do the french even know about the new world?
Both are overstating, they will comment a new kind of weapon and their effect and how get one... if they can get one at the time at all
Actually, preventing Majapahit from existing would mean Luzon and Sulu would be muslim a century earlier than OTL, ITTL Luzon would be split into two areas Sanfotsi and Ma-Yi and no one would consider that as one and the same land until recently.
ACT VIII Part VI: The Treaty of Xavier
Planet of Hats
Donor
Excerpt: Great Battles of the Crossing Age - Isabeu Fenol, Tomery Press, 2015
Entente in the War of Navarrese Succession did not come immediately. The withdrawal of the French left Santiago to the tender mercies of Andalusi and Navarrese forces for the better part of the autumn of 1391 and the early spring of 1392. That time saw the remaining Knights of St. James defeated as a coherent unit not by the Andalusians, but by a force of Berber irregulars raiding out of occupied Valdestillas.
The low-level conflict between the Hizamids and Santiago remained in the background in the spring of 1392, when King Jocelyn II of Navarre crossed the Alps to meet with King Milian of Navarre and Hajib Abd ar-Rahman of Al-Andalus. The three met on Navarrese soil in the Pyrenean foothills, at Xavier Castle near the Aragon River.[1]
The defeat of the French army had come with severe losses, the worst of them suffered when a large part of the French host had pulled back to Villanua and been trapped in a valley before being torn apart by fireballs and tanin fire. The siege of Pamplona had been a narrower thing, with damage to the city sufficient that Milian had taken to governing from the royal estates in Olite. All sides came into the negotiations knowing that France remained a power in the long run - but for now, the Hizamids had shown themselves to be capable of dealing them a serious defeat. Moreover, with Jocelyn's brother Baldwin in Moorish hands and Jocelyn himself as yet without living male heir, the French King was prepared to make moves to see him returned.
The ensuing Treaty of Xavier is a formative document in European history: It effectively put to paper the conceit that Europe ends at the Pyrenees, setting in place a frontier between Christianity and Islam that had legal backing behind it. It would set into motion a series of spinoff courses in history that would have profound effects.
Jocelyn and the emissary of King Alfonso of Santiago - who did not attend in person - both agreed to recognize Milian as King of Navarre. That status would be recognized as well by the Hizamids, who agreed to prop up Milian and his descendants on the condition that they not make war to their south. However, the Basque kingdom would recognize its narrow escape from French hegemony by paying a yearly tribute of gold into Jocelyn's coffers for the next two decades, and a smaller one to the Caliphal treasury at Isbili. The tribute was not crippling by the standards of the time, but it would represent enough of a slice of Navarre's budget as to make clear the real intentions of Abd ar-Rahman and Jocelyn, as did the concession that several towns in the Pyrenees would be recognized as Navarre's. The Basque kingdom would live on, but it would form a buffer between France and Andalusia, as well as a safe route for pilgrims seeking to follow Roncesvalles Past while walking the Way of Saint James.
The disposition of Baldwin was a simpler matter. The young Count would be returned to France later that year in exchange for a significant ransom. While Abd ar-Rahman initially asked for a sum that would have strained the French treasury, he is said to have eased his demands later in the negotiation as a means to soften French resistance to his more critical proposals.
Most controversially, Abd ar-Rahman agreed to withdraw Andalusian troops from the Santiagonian countryside and surrender several towns captured in the heartland, namely withdrawing the occupying troops from Corunna and Ferrol and pulling back Berber raiders from Palencia and Benavente. However, Abd ar-Rahman refused to withdraw his troops from holdings south of the Duero, considering them fairly-gotten gains with claims dating back to the time of Abd ar-Rahman I. Navarre pressed a series of claims of its own, pushing its border west to Burgos and Santander as well as Palencia. These claims initially met French resistance, but over the protests of the Santiagonian delegation, Jocelyn conceded in exchange for a promise that the Andalusians would not interfere with the right of pilgrims to travel to Santiago de Compostela or walk the Way of Saint James. Abd ar-Rahman, seeing the opportunity to gain a vast swath of land, agreed.
The signing of the Treaty of Xavier dramatically shrunk Santiago, reduced Navarre to a buffer state and resulted in a swath of good land coming under Hizamid control, much of it studded with new Christian villages and towns - mostly Normando-founded settlements constructed in the former no-man's-land in the Duero Valley. This represented a significant loss of land, population and tax revenue to Santiago, adding more than 500,000 new Andalusian citizens, almost entirely Christian. The cities remained in the hands of Berber garrisons, who had settled in and established power structures there. Abd ar-Rahman would find these Berbers reluctant to leave, ultimately granting them sanction to govern those new holdings under the supervision of a governor.
While the treaty benefitted the Hizamids and Navarre enormously while bringing France at least a regular source of income for twenty years, the biggest loser was Santiago. Infuriated by what he saw as his brother-in-law's abandonment of his kingdom, Alfonso declared that he was signing the accord "only at the point of a Moorish knife," and vowed to avenge his defeat.
He would not get the chance. Less than a year later, Alfonso would be overthrown in a court coup and replaced with his nephew, Bermudo III. The ensuing civil war - known as the War of the Shells - would see Santiago splinter into camps of competing counties and fiefdoms as the petty lords of the north had it out with each other.
On the Hizamid side, the capture of the Duero Valley created new pressures, among them a large number of new subjects feeling abandoned by their sovereign to the north and ill-disposed towards their new Muslim overlords.
The Treaty was not long followed by unrest: A Christian revolt in the town of Ruan de Huebra in 1393 saw local Catholic clergy foment a peasant uprising, driving the Berber administrators out of the town and seizing it. The revolt spread to neighbouring villages before a detachment of the Black Guard arrived, put down the peasant army by force of arms and executed the ringleaders, including a deacon close to the Bishop of Salamanca. The bishop promptly appealed to the town's new wali of mistreatment by the towns' Berber overlords.
Another small revolt in 1394, this time in a village outside Salamanca, saw an unusual occurrence: A Catholic synod called by the agent of a Muslim caliph. Abd ar-Rahman organized the Bishops of Salamanca and Porto to join himself and the Mozarabic Bishop of Tulaytulah at a so-called synod in Tulaytulah itself. There, Abd ar-Rahman granted the Catholics of the newly-conquered Duero lands a concession: They would be permitted to worship freely, and their bishops would remain in place, provided citizens remitted the jizya freely. The bishops in the area would be organized beneath the most senior Catholic diocese in the area - the Bishop of Salamanca - who would serve as the official representative of the area's Catholic community to the Caliph.[2] The Berber lord in charge of Salamanca was offered a new fief in Mawana - that is, put on a ship and sent out of mind - and a more moderate Andalusi overseer was sent to the area.
Minor brushfire rebellions along the lines of those experienced earlier in Andalusia's history continued to flare up in the Duero lands now and then, and the region was subject to some degree of emigration by burghers seeking to return to a Christian kingdom. The small Jewish population in the conquered lands generally stayed put, with some Jews even migrating south from Santiago to settle in the Duero Valley. By and large, however, Abd ar-Rahman opted to govern these lands with a fairly light touch.
The war would mark the most important military adventure on the home front for Abd ar-Rahman the Seafarer. The opportunity now loomed for him to live up to his historic moniker.
[1] OTL, this 10th-century castle is the birthplace of St. Francis Xavier.
[2] AMENDED 19-10-18: Whoops! Forgot that Palencia and Burgos are in Navarre. BRAIN Y U NO BRAIN RIGHT.
Entente in the War of Navarrese Succession did not come immediately. The withdrawal of the French left Santiago to the tender mercies of Andalusi and Navarrese forces for the better part of the autumn of 1391 and the early spring of 1392. That time saw the remaining Knights of St. James defeated as a coherent unit not by the Andalusians, but by a force of Berber irregulars raiding out of occupied Valdestillas.
The low-level conflict between the Hizamids and Santiago remained in the background in the spring of 1392, when King Jocelyn II of Navarre crossed the Alps to meet with King Milian of Navarre and Hajib Abd ar-Rahman of Al-Andalus. The three met on Navarrese soil in the Pyrenean foothills, at Xavier Castle near the Aragon River.[1]
The defeat of the French army had come with severe losses, the worst of them suffered when a large part of the French host had pulled back to Villanua and been trapped in a valley before being torn apart by fireballs and tanin fire. The siege of Pamplona had been a narrower thing, with damage to the city sufficient that Milian had taken to governing from the royal estates in Olite. All sides came into the negotiations knowing that France remained a power in the long run - but for now, the Hizamids had shown themselves to be capable of dealing them a serious defeat. Moreover, with Jocelyn's brother Baldwin in Moorish hands and Jocelyn himself as yet without living male heir, the French King was prepared to make moves to see him returned.
The ensuing Treaty of Xavier is a formative document in European history: It effectively put to paper the conceit that Europe ends at the Pyrenees, setting in place a frontier between Christianity and Islam that had legal backing behind it. It would set into motion a series of spinoff courses in history that would have profound effects.
Jocelyn and the emissary of King Alfonso of Santiago - who did not attend in person - both agreed to recognize Milian as King of Navarre. That status would be recognized as well by the Hizamids, who agreed to prop up Milian and his descendants on the condition that they not make war to their south. However, the Basque kingdom would recognize its narrow escape from French hegemony by paying a yearly tribute of gold into Jocelyn's coffers for the next two decades, and a smaller one to the Caliphal treasury at Isbili. The tribute was not crippling by the standards of the time, but it would represent enough of a slice of Navarre's budget as to make clear the real intentions of Abd ar-Rahman and Jocelyn, as did the concession that several towns in the Pyrenees would be recognized as Navarre's. The Basque kingdom would live on, but it would form a buffer between France and Andalusia, as well as a safe route for pilgrims seeking to follow Roncesvalles Past while walking the Way of Saint James.
The disposition of Baldwin was a simpler matter. The young Count would be returned to France later that year in exchange for a significant ransom. While Abd ar-Rahman initially asked for a sum that would have strained the French treasury, he is said to have eased his demands later in the negotiation as a means to soften French resistance to his more critical proposals.
Most controversially, Abd ar-Rahman agreed to withdraw Andalusian troops from the Santiagonian countryside and surrender several towns captured in the heartland, namely withdrawing the occupying troops from Corunna and Ferrol and pulling back Berber raiders from Palencia and Benavente. However, Abd ar-Rahman refused to withdraw his troops from holdings south of the Duero, considering them fairly-gotten gains with claims dating back to the time of Abd ar-Rahman I. Navarre pressed a series of claims of its own, pushing its border west to Burgos and Santander as well as Palencia. These claims initially met French resistance, but over the protests of the Santiagonian delegation, Jocelyn conceded in exchange for a promise that the Andalusians would not interfere with the right of pilgrims to travel to Santiago de Compostela or walk the Way of Saint James. Abd ar-Rahman, seeing the opportunity to gain a vast swath of land, agreed.
The signing of the Treaty of Xavier dramatically shrunk Santiago, reduced Navarre to a buffer state and resulted in a swath of good land coming under Hizamid control, much of it studded with new Christian villages and towns - mostly Normando-founded settlements constructed in the former no-man's-land in the Duero Valley. This represented a significant loss of land, population and tax revenue to Santiago, adding more than 500,000 new Andalusian citizens, almost entirely Christian. The cities remained in the hands of Berber garrisons, who had settled in and established power structures there. Abd ar-Rahman would find these Berbers reluctant to leave, ultimately granting them sanction to govern those new holdings under the supervision of a governor.
While the treaty benefitted the Hizamids and Navarre enormously while bringing France at least a regular source of income for twenty years, the biggest loser was Santiago. Infuriated by what he saw as his brother-in-law's abandonment of his kingdom, Alfonso declared that he was signing the accord "only at the point of a Moorish knife," and vowed to avenge his defeat.
He would not get the chance. Less than a year later, Alfonso would be overthrown in a court coup and replaced with his nephew, Bermudo III. The ensuing civil war - known as the War of the Shells - would see Santiago splinter into camps of competing counties and fiefdoms as the petty lords of the north had it out with each other.
On the Hizamid side, the capture of the Duero Valley created new pressures, among them a large number of new subjects feeling abandoned by their sovereign to the north and ill-disposed towards their new Muslim overlords.
The Treaty was not long followed by unrest: A Christian revolt in the town of Ruan de Huebra in 1393 saw local Catholic clergy foment a peasant uprising, driving the Berber administrators out of the town and seizing it. The revolt spread to neighbouring villages before a detachment of the Black Guard arrived, put down the peasant army by force of arms and executed the ringleaders, including a deacon close to the Bishop of Salamanca. The bishop promptly appealed to the town's new wali of mistreatment by the towns' Berber overlords.
Another small revolt in 1394, this time in a village outside Salamanca, saw an unusual occurrence: A Catholic synod called by the agent of a Muslim caliph. Abd ar-Rahman organized the Bishops of Salamanca and Porto to join himself and the Mozarabic Bishop of Tulaytulah at a so-called synod in Tulaytulah itself. There, Abd ar-Rahman granted the Catholics of the newly-conquered Duero lands a concession: They would be permitted to worship freely, and their bishops would remain in place, provided citizens remitted the jizya freely. The bishops in the area would be organized beneath the most senior Catholic diocese in the area - the Bishop of Salamanca - who would serve as the official representative of the area's Catholic community to the Caliph.[2] The Berber lord in charge of Salamanca was offered a new fief in Mawana - that is, put on a ship and sent out of mind - and a more moderate Andalusi overseer was sent to the area.
Minor brushfire rebellions along the lines of those experienced earlier in Andalusia's history continued to flare up in the Duero lands now and then, and the region was subject to some degree of emigration by burghers seeking to return to a Christian kingdom. The small Jewish population in the conquered lands generally stayed put, with some Jews even migrating south from Santiago to settle in the Duero Valley. By and large, however, Abd ar-Rahman opted to govern these lands with a fairly light touch.
The war would mark the most important military adventure on the home front for Abd ar-Rahman the Seafarer. The opportunity now loomed for him to live up to his historic moniker.
[1] OTL, this 10th-century castle is the birthplace of St. Francis Xavier.
[2] AMENDED 19-10-18: Whoops! Forgot that Palencia and Burgos are in Navarre. BRAIN Y U NO BRAIN RIGHT.
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That is my line, they should have asked for more, like Zamora and keep a better defensive perimeter, still a win.
Well that happened.
Kinda amusing to see the County of Urgell nabbing some border territories too, probably striking it when France and everyone was distracted. I can see the Duke of Provencia heavily researching gunpowder and seafaring after all this, just to stick it even more to the French.
And interesting to see the hajib involving himself in Christian matters, though I wonder if Rome would just accept the arrangement without some fracas and grumbling.
Kinda amusing to see the County of Urgell nabbing some border territories too, probably striking it when France and everyone was distracted. I can see the Duke of Provencia heavily researching gunpowder and seafaring after all this, just to stick it even more to the French.
And interesting to see the hajib involving himself in Christian matters, though I wonder if Rome would just accept the arrangement without some fracas and grumbling.
last admiral
Banned
My EU4 mind:
Conversion buffet time!!! /jk
Not enough paper mana i take it?
But yeah, all well end not-so-quite well. Cant wait if there any POV of governer of new territory and the missionary that were send to this new territory.
b o a t t i m e
Looks like we're setting the stage for contact with the Andeans, and possibly outright conquest?
EDIT: Alternately, Abderrahman might instead explore the African coast to map out the route to the Indian Ocean, culminating in some interference in Yemeni politics and maybe the acceptance of the Umayyads as Caliph in Aden.
Looks like we're setting the stage for contact with the Andeans, and possibly outright conquest?
EDIT: Alternately, Abderrahman might instead explore the African coast to map out the route to the Indian Ocean, culminating in some interference in Yemeni politics and maybe the acceptance of the Umayyads as Caliph in Aden.
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It has a special ability of invisibility, as long as its still no one can see it. So they been expanding quietly because everyone forgot they existed. Its literally one of those they exist because people forget they exist nation.
