Mongols stay in Europe in 1241.

b12ox

Banned
The Mongols overrun much of eastern Europe in the first half of the 13th century. They won all major battles and subdued local chiefdoms. Then, they get the mesage their Khan dies someplace in Siberia and they all have to return home to bury him and choose another. Thus Europe is saved.

What would have happened had they ignored the call and stayed. Would they be able to shoot roots, build castles, subdue locals, establish hierrachical rule, marry into western royal dysnasties, such things.
 
Judging from other countries where they did stay for some time, like Russia or the Middle East, they would more or less disappear after their rule collapses. They might leave some genetic traces in the population of course, and lots of horror stories, but likely not any kind of "Mongol culture" that could survive after their rule.
 
The Mongols overrun much of eastern Europe in the first half of the 13th century. They won all major battles and subdued local chiefdoms. Then, they get the mesage their Khan dies someplace in Siberia and they all have to return home to bury him and choose another. Thus Europe is saved.

That the short story. Now, the complete one is.

"They won major battles (not all as in Olmouc), but unable to really use them to take control of places too develloped and fortified. They managed to transform East Europe in a raiding zone, as other steppe peoples before them, without damaging or changing the social infrastructure.
Then, they knew the position of Khan was avaible for business, and that ruling or at least influencing the one who was ruling would be better than making raids without too much consequences".

"Thus Eastern Europe knew less raids and avoided to look like Russia. Well a little more than today, let's say".

"Western Europe didn't cared too much."

For resume, when they invaded countries without too much fortified places, it was okay. But when they were in ountries with strongholds, fortifications, etc they didn't managed to take control even when winning battles in crushing victory (and it wasn't always the case).

They simply didn't had the manpower for that, while they had for China (coupled with inner issues for China).

Let's say they could have taken Poland, that would have looked like a Russian principality. (Probably a divided Poland).
Also taking Vallachian principalities is doable.

Mongol Invasion of Europe is probably one of the most overrated POD on this board.
 
That the short story. Now, the complete one is.

"They won major battles (not all as in Olmouc), but unable to really use them to take control of places too develloped and fortified. They managed to transform East Europe in a raiding zone, as other steppe peoples before them, without damaging or changing the social infrastructure.
Then, they knew the position of Khan was avaible for business, and that ruling or at least influencing the one who was ruling would be better than making raids without too much consequences".

"Thus Eastern Europe knew less raids and avoided to look like Russia. Well a little more than today, let's say".

"Western Europe didn't cared too much."

For resume, when they invaded countries without too much fortified places, it was okay. But when they were in ountries with strongholds, fortifications, etc they didn't managed to take control even when winning battles in crushing victory (and it wasn't always the case).

They simply didn't had the manpower for that, while they had for China (coupled with inner issues for China).

Let's say they could have taken Poland, that would have looked like a Russian principality. (Probably a divided Poland).
Also taking Vallachian principalities is doable.

Mongol Invasion of Europe is probably one of the most overrated POD on this board.
I think Greater Poland and Silesia would had been absorbed to the Holy Roman Empire as a Rump Poland, the Vallachian principalities did not exist that time so a Mongol state in OTL Romania is possible since the Mongols could kick the Cumans from OTL Wallachia and Moldova.
 

b12ox

Banned
That the short story. Now, the complete one is.

"They won major battles (not all as in Olmouc), but unable to really use them to take control of places too develloped and fortified. They managed to transform East Europe in a raiding zone, as other steppe peoples before them, without damaging or changing the social infrastructure.
Then, they knew the position of Khan was avaible for business, and that ruling or at least influencing the one who was ruling would be better than making raids without too much consequences".

"Thus Eastern Europe knew less raids and avoided to look like Russia. Well a little more than today, let's say".

"Western Europe didn't cared too much."

For resume, when they invaded countries without too much fortified places, it was okay. But when they were in ountries with strongholds, fortifications, etc they didn't managed to take control even when winning battles in crushing victory (and it wasn't always the case).

They simply didn't had the manpower for that, while they had for China (coupled with inner issues for China).

Let's say they could have taken Poland, that would have looked like a Russian principality. (Probably a divided Poland).
Also taking Vallachian principalities is doable.

Mongol Invasion of Europe is probably one of the most overrated POD on this board.

Eastern Europe didn't look that strong at the time. The strongholds were of wood. It was an easy game for the Mongols who could esily burn them down. Stone cities in eastern Europe begun suddenly apearing soon after but wth the actual Mongol raids there was none of it. They replaced burned down strongholds as it was the case with Budapest and Cracovia.
 
I think Greater Poland and Silesia would had been absorbed to the Holy Roman Empire as a Rump Poland, the Vallachian principalities did not exist that time so a Mongol state in OTL Romania is possible since the Mongols could kick the Cumans from OTL Wallachia and Moldova.

That seems plausible, and probably the likely outcome.
Vallachian principalities (in the meaning of statelets) existed nevertheless, under Kuman domination. Not counting, of course, the Kingdom of Valachians and Bulgars.

Eastern Europe didn't look that strong at the time. The strongholds were of wood.
In eastern Poland and northen Hungary, yes. Not in Dalmatia, western Hungary, Croatia, western Poland and some part of Vallachia.


It was an easy game for the Mongols who could esily burn them down.
Not really, since the wooden strognhold appeared in Europe, you had plenty of tricks to not make them burn easily. Beast tides with water, equivalents of murus gallicus (I don't know the english for "mur à poteaux frontaux verticaux" but it's the word in french for what existed in Eastern Europe), etc.

Of course, it couldn't really stand against an army in numerical advantage, but it's more due to the ability of such army to have siege engines rather than an inner weakness of wooden strongholds.

A raiding force or a small expedition, admitting it have interest into besieging all strongholds (that is not really likely) would have to use the good ol' siege and wait the ennemy to be starving.


Stone cities in eastern Europe begun suddenly apearing soon after but wth the actual Mongol raids there was none of it.

And? Many wooden strongholds fairly resisted the Mongols (not talking of stone fortification in Croatia/Dalmatia, as well western Poland that existed).

Having a stone wall isn't a magical feature, when wooden fortification are useless. I stand my point : Mongols weren't able to take control of the country because of a coherent and strong net of fortification, more stone in the south and west 'as in Klis stronghold in stone since the early XII maybe earlier, at least before the Mongols arrival), more wooden in the north and east.

Wooden strongholds weren't really a "how my god we forgot that wood can be fired!" feature. It was a cheap, efficient way to fortify with limited ressources and that was often coupled with a limited use of stone (as stone fortifications up to the XVI used many wooden features).
 
Top