Mongols conquer India instead of Russia during Ogedei and Batu Khan's rule

During early periods of Mongol Empire, conquest of India will not be successful. Mongol troops can't withstand Indian climate and disease. They just will die from heat and tropical disease. Now generations after when Mongols integrate Khwaresm, they can use troops from Afghan and Northern Pakistan in order to conquer India.
When Mongols invaded Southern China, the most troops were from China proper.
Considering Jalal-al Din managed to with a much smaller force conquer and hold the Punjab region, and eventually Ogodei did send troops which were successful in Lahore and only retreated because he died, I would disagree with that sentiment.
 
Considering Jalal-al Din managed to with a much smaller force conquer and hold the Punjab region, and eventually Ogodei did send troops which were successful in Lahore and only retreated because he died, I would disagree with that sentiment.

One thing if you conduct small scale campaign in short period. Another thing if you launch large scale conquest of whole India.
Again, mongolians can't tolerate heat and disease of India.
 
During early periods of Mongol Empire, conquest of India will not be successful. Mongol troops can't withstand Indian climate and disease. They just will die from heat and tropical disease. Now generations after when Mongols integrate Khwaresm, they can use troops from Afghan and Northern Pakistan in order to conquer India.
When Mongols invaded Southern China, the most troops were from China proper.
Yah,indeed the Mongol soldier were so fragile... hardly adapted to other conditions than their homeland steppe...
 
One thing if you conduct small scale campaign in short period. Another thing if you launch large scale conquest of whole India.
Again, mongolians can't tolerate heat and disease of India.
There is no need to conquer the whole of India in one go. I rarely hold stake in the idea that any particular group could not handle heat (and disease is too random to determine).
Mongols were used to deserts, the Gobi occasionally going from Saharan like temperatures to arctic conditions within the space of a day. Forces less familiar with the heat have managed to make successful long term campaigns into the Indian subcontinent so I don't feel that is a good reason to exclude them.
 
Yah,indeed the Mongol soldier were so fragile... hardly adapted to other conditions than their homeland steppe...

Sarcasm aside....
Mongols were very tolerant to very hot and very cold climate if it is arid or temperate continental climate. Because Mongolia has very hot summer and very cold winter.
For humid-tropical conditions not exactly suites Mongols. Mongols don't have resistance against tropical disease too. And it is not counting whether Mongol horses can withstand the Indian climate.
 
Mongols were used to deserts, the Gobi occasionally going from Saharan like temperatures to arctic conditions within the space of a day.

Exactly, only if it is arid/temperate continental climate. Hot or cold is not problem (in summer reaches +40C, and in winter reaches -40C). Problem is humid-tropical condition.

Forces less familiar with the heat have managed to make successful long term campaigns into the Indian subcontinent so I don't feel that is a good reason to exclude them.

I never said they can't or wouldn't conquer them. What I said was they would choose European campaign over Indian one.
During Mongol Empire, mongols were extremely competent and intelligent. They made decisions based on their chance of success.
After conquest of Khwarezm Chingis sent Subotei and Zev through Caucusus in order to scout the territory whether its conquerable or not. When Subotei and Zev won Battle of Kalka in 1223, they knew conquest of Rus wil be not difficult task.
 
Exactly, only if it is arid/temperate continental climate. Hot or cold is not problem (in summer reaches +40C, and in winter reaches -40C). Problem is humid-tropical condition.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

I never said they can't or wouldn't conquer them. What I said was they would choose European campaign over Indian one.
During Mongol Empire, mongols were extremely competent and intelligent. They made decisions based on their chance of success.
After conquest of Khwarezm Chingis sent Subotei and Zev through Caucusus in order to scout the territory whether its conquerable or not. When Subotei and Zev won Battle of Kalka in 1223, they knew conquest of Rus wil be not difficult task.
Earlier still in 1221 the Mongols pursued Jalal into India. Contrary to popular belief, whilst the Mongols were very intelligent in their conquests, they also were not civ players with the idea of grabbing land for lands sake. India was not only desirable, but posed a significant threat both externally and internally, leading to Ogodei having to move forces eventually to counter Jalal-al Din's resurgence, whilst better placating the Ilkhanate and Chagatai Khanate.

I'm not saying that a move west was not at some point inevitable, but that an earlier investment into conquering northern India would not only have been possible, but was the course of action initially planned. Don't take my word for it, but let's look at what historians say.

I don't have my pc set up yet, but I believe on page 30 of Jack Weatherford's, Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World (if you can find a PDF it is underneath the section of Europe), he stresses that at the Kurultai not only was there a large debate over numerous roads of expansion but that the eventual plan to go west was a break from the plans of Genghis Khan.
 
Earlier still in 1221 the Mongols pursued Jalal into India. Contrary to popular belief, whilst the Mongols were very intelligent in their conquests, they also were not civ players with the idea of grabbing land for lands sake. India was not only desirable, but posed a significant threat both externally and internally, leading to Ogodei having to move forces eventually to counter Jalal-al Din's resurgence, whilst better placating the Ilkhanate and Chagatai Khanate.

1. Killing Jalal-ad-Din was order from Chingis, so pursuing him is logical. But conquest was never mentioned. Realistically Jalal-ad-Din neither had support nor the troops to pose serious threat. Even among Khwarezimians Jalal-ad-Din hardly had support.
2. India poses threat to Mongol Empire? - Are you sure? were do you get that from? When India posed threat ever? I never heard of Indian Empire conquering the other parts of Eurasian steppe. It is Persians/Central Asian nomads posed threat to India.
3. The only threat that posed to Mongols were Tangut and Jin dynasty. Tangut was already being conquered when Chingis was dying. Jin Dynasty was first country Ogodei conquered. After that it was just expansion.
4. As for land-grab... Nomads never created wealth. Only way gaining wealth was conquest of others. Once nomads united and secure you need to make them happy and rich. So they start conquering states after states untill they no longer can do conquest. If they can't d conquest then inevitably they start infighting among themselves, to robb others wealth. That is hard/sad reality of nomads.
 
Don't take my word for it, but let's look at what historians say.

The biggest source is Secret History of Mongolia (Chinese or Rashid-ad-Din's). There Chingis mentioned destroy the Tanguts (said when he was dying), destroy the Jin Dynasty to revenge ancestors.
I never heard that Chingis actually planned conquest of world. What Chingis said was, he got blessing of Monk Tenger (highest deity of Tengerism) to conquer land from East to West. (literally speaking - land of Sunrise to land of Sunset).

I'm not saying that a move west was not at some point inevitable, but that an earlier investment into conquering northern India would not only have been possible, but was the course of action initially planned.

I don't know if it was planned or not, but conquest of OTL Pakistan is indeed possible and climate is more or less same as Central Asia/Persia. unlike Indian interior were is jungle.

One scenario could be if Jalal-ad-Din marries some Indian princes and became King of Indian state - lets say Ghurid Sultanate. Now around 1230's he wil start attacking Chagataid Ulus. That would certainly attract atention of Ogodei Khaan and Chagatai (second son of Chingis) who wielded most influence to Ogodei Khaan. So Ogodei will comit his resources against Jalal-ad-Din/Ghurid Sultanate. Even in this scenario European campaign still will occur, since as I said core troops were Eurasian/Southern Siberian Turkic nomads.
 
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I'd say that it was very much possible with a Kurultai that decided to follow Genghis' wishes.

The Mongols had a valid reason for attack, and it was not as if the Mongols ever needed a cassus belli anyways.

Jalaldin had a powerful backer in the form of Balban. He had taken control of the Ghulam forces and had taken the dynasty to a head and very much had the resources to fight a prolonged war against the Mongols.
 
1. Killing Jalal-ad-Din was order from Chingis, so pursuing him is logical. But conquest was never mentioned. Realistically Jalal-ad-Din neither had support nor the troops to pose serious threat. Even among Khwarezimians Jalal-ad-Din hardly had support.
Except he did. He launched an effort to reclaim his empire which was ended early by his murder, but had been relatively successful (he was being pushed back at the time of his death). As Genghis Khan predicted, his army comprised of the Delhi Sultanate Indians who supported him and local rebels.
2. India poses threat to Mongol Empire? - Are you sure? were do you get that from? When India posed threat ever? I never heard of Indian Empire conquering the other parts of Eurasian steppe. It is Persians/Central Asian nomads posed threat to India.
Because India was where Jalal Al Din was building his forces. He reached all the way to Azerbaijan which was remarkable considering all he was up against.
3. The only threat that posed to Mongols were Tangut and Jin dynasty. Tangut was already being conquered when Chingis was dying. Jin Dynasty was first country Ogodei conquered. After that it was just expansion.
Genghis Khan disagrees with you. Now I agree in the long run that realistically he was not a threat, but it was reasonable for the Mongols to presume so and evidently they did. Remember, the thread isn't about what was most logical for the mongols, but the fact that Batu Khan convinced the Kurultai to go west when they broke from Genghis Khan's original plan to go to India.
4. As for land-grab... Nomads never created wealth. Only way gaining wealth was conquest of others. Once nomads united and secure you need to make them happy and rich. So they start conquering states after states untill they no longer can do conquest. If they can't d conquest then inevitably they start infighting among themselves, to robb others wealth. That is hard/sad reality of nomads.
Yes, but it wasn't purely for sake of ease that they did this. Genghis Khan always made sure that there were strong diplomatic reasons for hthat s conquests, with only Ogodei breaking this tradition.
 
The biggest source is Secret History of Mongolia (Chinese or Rashid-ad-Din's). There Chingis mentioned destroy the Tanguts (when he was destroying), destroy the Jin Dynasty to revenge ancestors.
I never heard that Chingis actually planned conquest of world. What Chingis said was, he got blessing of Monk Tenger (highest deity of Tengerism) to conquer land from East to West. (literally peaking - land of Sunrise to land from Sunset).
I am aware of this justification, but it is too simplistic. In reality, he would usually wait for strong diplomatic justification (people beheading diplomats being common, and this pissing off Genghis Khan)

I don't know if it was planned or not, but conquest of OTL Pakistan is indeed possible and climate is more or less same as Central Asia/Persia. unlike Indian interior were is jungle.
Seriously, look up the source I mentioned earlier. It was planned.

One scenario could be if Jalal-ad-Din marries some Indian Kprinces and became King of Indian state - lets say Ghurid Sultanate. Now around 1230's he wil start attacking Chagataid Ulus. That would certainly attract atention of Ogodei Khaan and Chagatai (second son of Chingis) who wielded most influence to Ogodei Khaan. So Ogodei will comit his resources against Jalal-ad-Din/Ghurid Sultanate. Even in this scenario European campaign still will occur, since as I said core troops were Eurasian/Southern Siberian Turkic nomads.
Jalal Al Din was already launching a war against the Chagatai and Ilkhanates before 1230.
 
Because India was where Jalal Al Din was building his forces. He reached all the way to Azerbaijan which was remarkable considering all he was up against.

Oh my God, Jalal-ad-Din coming... :(
Seriously, I you sure? I heard Jalal-ad-Din barely had 3-5 thousand troops. If he was so serious Chingis never would have withdrew bulk of its troops. If Mongols never mobilized against him, then that means Jalal-ad-Din never was so much problem.
 
So Chingis agreed with you hmmm....:rolleyes:
Well as my position is that Genghis Khan's plan was Genghis Khan's plan, yes :p
Never knew Jalal-ad-Din had time machine.....:eek:
my bad, I had just woken up when I wrote that. He was marching into their territories is what I meant.
Oh my God, Jalal-ad-Din coming... :(
Seriously, I you sure? I heard Jalal-ad-Din barely had 3-5 thousand troops. If he was so serious Chingis never would have withdrew bulk of its troops. If Mongols never mobilized against him, then that means Jalal-ad-Din never was so much problem.
Genghis was planning on mobilising before he died putting down the Xi rebellion.
And the mongols did mobilise against him, but were delayed in doing so.
 
Genghis was planning on mobilising before he died putting down the Xi rebellion

Now your posts becoming out of touch.
After came back from Khwarezm, he launched al out invasion of Tanguts. During the conquest he died. He never mobilized or plan to mobilize for Indian conquest.
No he never planned to invade India, there was no source mentioned it.
 
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