Mongols Conquer Europe

katchen

Banned
I just finished reading Book 3 of Greg Bear's "The Mongoliad". Apparently Subotai and Batu Khan attacked Europe at a particularly bad time. The Pope had died 3 years before and the College of Cardinals was stalemated with the Holy Roman Emperor camped outside the walls of Rome. If Ogadei Khan had not died (probably of cirrhosis of the liver brought about by his severe alcoholism) in that year, forcing the Mongols to withdraw their forces to elect a new Khagan at their Kuriltai, Batu could have caught the Emperor and Rome unawares, sacked Rome and prevented the election of a new Pope all without being completely aware of what he had accomplished until after he had done it.

While in the meantime, Subotai could have swept through Germany and into France and defeated King Louis IX and then moved into the Spanish kingdoms. I doubt if he would have bothered with England, or Scandinavia since either one would require organizing a naval armada.

And after the Christian kingdoms of Aragon and Castille, the Almohads, though once again, I doubt if Subotai would cross the Strait of Gibraltar immediately to comquer Fez. Iberia would be relatively easy for Mongols--open plateau--good for horses.

And then the Balkans and besiege Constantinople on the way back if Ogadei is still alive.

So depending on how long Ogadei lasts:

1242 Mongols conquer Italy, France and Germany but fail to conquer Spain. Mongols leave. England and Castille divide France between them. Mongol conquest Dennmark conquers Germany. Byzantines reconquer Italy. Eastern Church triumphant since Roman Catholic Church cannot reconstitute itself with cardinals abducted and taken to Karakorum

Ogadei survives until 1243
Spanish conquest incomplete. Almohads reconquer Spain Follow retreating Mongols into France, Germany and Italy, meeting Byzantines at some point. Big chance for big Islamic gains in Europe.

Ogadei survives until 1244 or 1245
Mongols consolidate power in Europe. No power vacuum. England avoids invasion by paying Mongols tribute as does Dennmark and Sweden. Constantinople falls. Lack of organized Catholic hierarchy enforced by abduction of Catholic cardinals. Religious freedom enforced. No heresy. Albigensianism revived. Size of nobility drastically reduced when Ogadei finally dies in 1245 due to conscription of much of Europe's nobility and men at arms to return to Karakorum with Subotai and Batu leaving only whatever Mongols necessary to govern.
 
How exactly are the Mongols just sweeping through all of Germany and France and Italy and conquering them in just a year?
 
I believe that so far the biggest problem has not been mentioned. Why bother? A large part of Europe is simply not worth the trouble of conquest. Britain, Scandinavia, Germany are simply to poor to try to conwuer it. Yes the mongols may be able to (although it is a lot harder than some people think), but if you have to defeat one noble after another, seige one castle after another without barely anything to gain, the Mongols will simply stop. They will go after the richer parts of the world.
 

katchen

Banned
Apparently the only reason they bothered was because Ogadei Khan ordered them to. And carrying out the orders of the Khagan was reason enough (never mind the fact that Ogadei needed to get those tumans away from Karakorum). Ogadei had another Horde kept busy conquering Korea at the same time. And Ogadei's orders specified to conquer until the Western Ocean. So I suppose Batu and Subotai could have stopped with France. But then they would have lost it all if they left unless they took Iberia and they would have realized it.

That's why my scenarios had them stopping at the English Channel and the Danish Islands and the Baltic.

As for why they went West to begin with. apparently, somebody from the West insulted Chinggis Khan, which is why he raided into Russia way back when. Mongol conquests did not always make economic sense.

Or strategic sense. Kublai Khan's later conquests, either made little sense, like his expeditions into Burma, Vietnam and Java, or were total failures when a different strategy could have succeeded, as with his Japan invasion. Why did Kublai have to try to repeat trrying to cross the Korean Strait anyway? Couldn't he figure out that it was easier to get to Japan by way of Sakhalin and Ezo (Hokkaido)?

And why did Kitabolga forget how to fight like a Mongol when it came time to fight Baibars the Mameluke --and he lost--because he tried to fight Baibars in the Judean Hills where Baibars could make full use of the terrain and the Mongols could not engage in their horsemanship?

Why didn't the Mongols either stay in Transjordan and cross further south, perhaps near the Gulf of Aqaba and make a beeline for Cairo the way the Arabs did when THEY conquered Cairo from the Byzantines with little opposition in 634 AD? That's how Mongols fight! Or even avoid Syria entirely and have their scouts find a way across the Arabian Desert from Iraq that their horses can negotiate (or trade horses for camels and learn how to ride them) directly before Baibars can even mobilize? That, even more is how Mongols fight. But it seems the Mongols forgot about that.:(
 
The composite bows of the Mongols will suffer the wetter and colder the weather becomes. Those bows are simply not build for cold and wet weather. If the glue gets wet the bows will loose power and break if they are used. Without one of their primary weapons life will get difficult for the Mongols.
 
If the Mongols were really willing to commit all out, I think they could do it - they fought against plenty of fortifications, such as that of the Assassins - but it is hardly worth it.

I think so too.....frankly, it would splinter fairly fast, but it's possible.....and I wonder how theChristian Mongol states in Europe vs Muslim Mongol states in the Middle East dynamic would play out...
 
The composite bows of the Mongols will suffer the wetter and colder the weather becomes. Those bows are simply not build for cold and wet weather. If the glue gets wet the bows will loose power and break if they are used. Without one of their primary weapons life will get difficult for the Mongols.

Really? They conqured Caucasus and Russia with those bows, two areas not known for their dry, hot climate. Not to mention that the mongolian steppe itself is not without its wet and cold periods.

Does anyone have real facts in this subject, like surviving documentation from the 1240s or modern reenactments?
 
Do the Mongols need to take all the castles? Can't they just level the cities outside the castles, selling the population into slavery? That could pretty much screw over Europe for centuries.

This thing about European uniting is also a poor argument. The Europeans did unify, as much as they could, and they still got smashed twice by the Mongols.
 
I think so too.....frankly, it would splinter fairly fast, but it's possible.....and I wonder how theChristian Mongol states in Europe vs Muslim Mongol states in the Middle East dynamic would play out...

Well, here's a question. Do the Mongols try to rule it directly (like the Ilkhanate), or mostly via vassals (like the Golden Horde to Russia)?


superkuf: From what I can tell, while fish glue (the preferred material) does just fine - well, no bows do well in rain - animal glue does absorb water with unpleasant consequences.

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm

But given that bows are kept away from moisture anyway (bow strings do not do well when wet), this is not the end of the world.

It is a limitation, however.
 
I think the political and diplomatic situation at the time is definitely worth discussing as much as the military aspects. It does seem pretty apocalyptic if the Mongols were to attack Italy while there was no Pope in power.
 

katchen

Banned
My understanding is that the Mongols would at first simply demand tribute and vassalage and only if they did not get it would they reduce a castle or city to rubble and kill all it's inhabitants. And when they did kill everyone, apparently they gave every Mongol a quota of heads to take and no Mongol could loot until he had made his quota. Which is probably where the pyramids of skulls came from. That's where the Mongol troops checked their enemy heads in to their Tumanbashi, apparently.

The example of a massacred city encouraged every other city in the neighborhood to surrender and pay the tribute. Which most likely is what would have happened in Europe too. It was basically the same way that the Romans conquered when we think about it, except that the Romans did not do it from horseback.
 
Top