Mongol raid to the Baltic instead of the Sudety/Carpathians

I was thinking is it possible for the Mongols to heavily raid Lithuania, Teutonic Knights,North Russia, Mazovia and Kuyavia causing the majority of the survivors to flee south to Silesia, Hungary, Galicia and Lusatia, what would be the consequences of it.
 

katchen

Banned
The Mongols would have destroyed the Novgorod Republic, which was the nucleus of the rebirth of Russia. There is a good chance that the Middle Volga would remain Finnish speaking rather than Russian speaking, especially if the Mongols went on to conquer Finland from the Swedes.
Interesting question whether the Mongols would have gone on to conquer Sweden and Norway. I suspect that would have depended on whether the Gulf of Bothnia was frozen over around the Vasa narrows in the winter of 1240. If the Gulf of Bothnia was open water and the Mongols had to go around it, probably not, unless the Swedes insulted them terribly. If the Gulf of Bothnia was frozen over, the Mongols would likely conquer Uppsala, then the capital and quickly cross the Kjolen to Nidaros (Trondheim, then the capital of Norway, ending the Olafid Dynasty and perhaps aborting the Christianization of Scandinavia and the Baltic before Ogadei Khan died and they had to return to Mongolia for the Kuriltai to elect the next Khagan.
Peninsular Scandinavia would probably be united early and not unite with Dennmark in the Union of Kalmar. It is entirely possible that the Finns might become the dominant force in Northern Europe, not the Swedes or the Slavs, if the Golden Horde receded. The Finns would likely finally become Catholic unless Tibetan Buddhism came to the Golden Horde in the 14th Century, which would require an additional change, the defeat of the Uzbek Khans in what is now Kazakhstan who converted to Islam and perhaps a reunited Mongol Imperium under the Altan Khans.
A Finnish dominated Scandinavia, stretching all the way to the Atlantic and perhaps with the Livonians, Esthonians and Lithuanians as well as Swedes and Norwegians subject to them would be a major change to the European balance of power since it would also stretch to the Urals, likely with an uneasy Southern frontier with Poland doing the same thing further South Interesting relationships with England and Scotland. :). Eventually, Catholic Finns cross Siberia to the Pacific. Remember, nations build their power because people speaking their language have more children than the people surrounding them. :rolleyes:
 
Why would Mongols change direction? OTL they attacked Hungary because remains of Kipchaks fled there, and silesian Piasts got attacked because they were allied to Hungary.
 
The Mongols didn't deal very well with thick forests either, if memory serves. That's part of why Moscow and Novgorod were able to survive.

I also question why the Mongols would want to invade the Baltic or Scandinavian states. There's not exactly a lot of wealth to be had from them in comparison to the much more prosperous areas they attacked OTL.
 
I believe Lithuania was relativly rich and powerful at the time? In comparison to much of western europe anyway.

Anyway, I agree the Mongols raiding into Scandinavia is unlikly, barring a massive political mistake by a Scandinavian ruler. Scandinavia at the time was pretty poor, and made up of forests, mountains, the occasional glacier, lakes and sea. Sometimes all of them in the same square mile. All terrain the Mongols weren't fond of, and for very little wealth. They'd probably go south and west along the Baltic instead of crossing it.
 
I also question why the Mongols would want to invade the Baltic or Scandinavian states. There's not exactly a lot of wealth to be had from them in comparison to the much more prosperous areas they attacked OTL.
Why would Mongols change direction? OTL they attacked Hungary because remains of Kipchaks fled there, and silesian Piasts got attacked because they were allied to Hungary.
Got it have the remains of the Kipchaks migrate to the Baltics!
Because ITTL the remains of the Kipchaks migrate north to Mazovia, Prussia and Lithuania not to Hungary, I think a second POD is also better for this scenario a longer reign of Konrad of Mazovia in Poland so instead of having Henryk of Silesia rule Poland we would now have Konrad the Pious of Mazovia dying in Battle, the Prussians are freed from the Teutons and although they will also experience loses due to the Mongols.

Peninsular Scandinavia would probably be united early and not unite with Dennmark in the Union of Kalmar. It is entirely possible that the Finns might become the dominant force in Northern Europe, not the Swedes or the Slavs, if the Golden Horde receded. The Finns would likely finally become Catholic unless Tibetan Buddhism came to the Golden Horde in the 14th Century, which would require an additional change, the defeat of the Uzbek Khans in what is now Kazakhstan who converted to Islam and perhaps a reunited Mongol Imperium under the Altan Khans.

Buddhist Finland would be interesting..
 
The Mongols didn't deal very well with thick forests either, if memory serves. That's part of why Moscow and Novgorod were able to survive.

Moving in a place like this isn't especially pleasant:

mets.jpg
 
Moving in a place like this isn't especially pleasant:

mets.jpg

They moved through forests when they had to, Zalesye was forested but conquered.

That said, there was still many cities left in Russia and it would have been another campaign of a year or two to siege and burn all of them...meanwhile the Kipchaks would have escaped.

Basically, not enough reward for the effort...and the terrain doesn't help.
 
Here are the obvious consequences according to another forum which I asked the same question
-Silesia and Krakow will be the core of Poland not Mazovia.
-Weaker Balts, perhaps no Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
-Novgorod and Muscovy end up under Mongol Yoke.

If Bohemia recieved many Polish Refugees, how would that effect the Czechs?
 
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