Mongol Empire's Cointinuation

Don't get mad at me if it's been done before.

What if the Mongol Empire hadn't fractured? What if it had counquered Europe and the Muslim world, all the while remaining pagan?

In a world ruled entirely by Mongols (save for the Americas), would religion and language become homogenous, or at least more so?

Would the eventual fracturing and warring succesor states' wars be different without non-mongol interrference?
 

scholar

Banned
Mongol practices dictated that the domains would be divided among the sons. This would require the Mongols adopting a principle of rigid succession much sooner. Given the immense amount of religious tolerance shown by the Mongols, there would be no unifying of religion. Because the Mongols had no real writing, there would be no unified written language, which would make unified spoken language even more distant. Assuming that the Mongols did manage to control the entire Eurasian-African world, that would lead to a lot of problems about the Islands. Would the mongols Island hop down to Australia? Madagascar? And when the new world is discovered, what will stop them from invading them?

And that's only if they do it. The idea of the mongols actually controlling the world is very, very far fetched. A near impossibility in fact. It would take centuries to take over Europe and Africa, especially since there is desert and rain forest dividing the continent, along with all sorts of disease. There are just too many variables, and too many obstacles. This just seems... frankly impossibly unrealistic.
 
Mongol practices dictated that the domains would be divided among the sons. This would require the Mongols adopting a principle of rigid succession much sooner. Given the immense amount of religious tolerance shown by the Mongols, there would be no unifying of religion. Because the Mongols had no real writing, there would be no unified written language, which would make unified spoken language even more distant. Assuming that the Mongols did manage to control the entire Eurasian-African world, that would lead to a lot of problems about the Islands. Would the mongols Island hop down to Australia? Madagascar? And when the new world is discovered, what will stop them from invading them?

And that's only if they do it. The idea of the mongols actually controlling the world is very, very far fetched. A near impossibility in fact. It would take centuries to take over Europe and Africa, especially since there is desert and rain forest dividing the continent, along with all sorts of disease. There ar


e just too many variables, and too many obstacles. This just seems... frankly impossibly unrealistic.


Mongols had a written language Genghis Khan ordered the secret history of the Mongols in Mongolian tongue, also the relegion ofthe Mongols I agree is ASB, however I can gaurentee that should Batu die under some circumstances you butterfly away the golden horde so all that land in Modern day Russiaconquered by Subodei remains Pagan, what you need is for the Mongol invasion of China fail, the Mongols sue for peace and we encounter a virtual cold war beetween the two massive empires, next have Genghis reforms get passed before he dies with a great Khagan who is Pagan, In this manner I can see the Mongols survive as Paggans, but it is ASB for all Mongol land to remain Pagan....
 
If Khan had lived another decade very likely he would have brought Europe and China under his reign. With a strong successor like Kublai his Empire might have had a chance to survive.
in such an empire I would see Chinese culture spreading like wild fire if not the plague.
 
Yah the best I could see Mongols have dominion in is Russia and that becomes shaky in the 15th century especially
 
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South (steppe) Russia, central Asia, Mongolia, Siberia, Xinjiang, perhaps Manchuria...much larger than that, simply get culturally swamped by the settled peoples which are their subjects.

Religion is a big problem given an empire which sprawls over Islamic, Christian, _and_ Buddhist/Confucian territories. Religious toleration requires that the rulers do not convert to an intolerant religion: Old-fashioned Mongol tolerance combined with fairly vague shamanist beliefs won't hack it against the competition of intolerant monotheisms. OTL, Mongol rulers of the Khanates eventually all converted to Islam or Buddhism.

in the long run you probably need some sort of majority religion unifying the rulers and (most) of the ruled, or at least a plurality of a multi-religious state so different groups can be balanced against eachother. A state based on a small "warrior" class ruling over a mass of people who share neither their ethnicity or religious beliefs is unlike to successfully modernize. Buddhism? Islam? Nestorian Christianity? Some sort of formalized (and probably syncretic as hell) version of traditonal Mongol shamanist beliefs? What do people think would be the most "useful" religion for the Mongol/Turkic ruling classes to adopt?

Bruce
 
Mongols would take in other Steppe warrior peoples OTL. If they did that en mass they would now have an army of Turks as a second class rulling caste. They could control cities by leaving a small group of Mongols and Turks and keeping a few local thugs armed and well paid but poorly trained to work as a police force of sorts. Keeping up the threat of the return of the horde in case of any serious rebellion. Possibly taking out a few cities from time to time or just plain starting rumors of cities that have been re-invaded. This could keep the empire going for a few hundred years easily. Hell civilize the Mongols and they might even create a "pax" Mongolia and rule for a millennium.
 

scholar

Banned
Mongols would take in other Steppe warrior peoples OTL. If they did that en mass they would now have an army of Turks as a second class rulling caste. They could control cities by leaving a small group of Mongols and Turks and keeping a few local thugs armed and well paid but poorly trained to work as a police force of sorts. Keeping up the threat of the return of the horde in case of any serious rebellion. Possibly taking out a few cities from time to time or just plain starting rumors of cities that have been re-invaded. This could keep the empire going for a few hundred years easily. Hell civilize the Mongols and they might even create a "pax" Mongolia and rule for a millennium.
The Mongols were often more civilized than their civilized neighbors, as noted by even some Byzantine scholars. Them not being civilized was not the problem. The problem was their division of the empire after the death of the parent. Unless there was only one son, the land holdings would be divided. Now as long as there was a clear and present leader in charge of the Empire, the divisions actually strengthened the empire by allowing campaigns to be handled across the entire continent without problems, the problem came when there wasn't a "Great Khan" to control the entire mongol empire, which lead to the divisions of the empire to become independent totally or just pay nominal subservience to the (not so) "Great Khan" that one of the larger divisions put forward. What you needed was a hereditary monarchy that didn't divide the empire, much like Kublai did, and like the Il Khanate also did. The Golden Horde did so as well, but only after the empire was pretty much divided irreparably. The Chagatai collapsed due to the divisions.

Just give them a monarchy and make the generals and family members more loyal and then maybe, just maybe, it will survive and grow.
 
The Mongols were often more civilized than their civilized neighbors, as noted by even some Byzantine scholars. Them not being civilized was not the problem. The problem was their division of the empire after the death of the parent. Unless there was only one son, the land holdings would be divided. Now as long as there was a clear and present leader in charge of the Empire, the divisions actually strengthened the empire by allowing campaigns to be handled across the entire continent without problems, the problem came when there wasn't a "Great Khan" to control the entire mongol empire, which lead to the divisions of the empire to become independent totally or just pay nominal subservience to the (not so) "Great Khan" that one of the larger divisions put forward. What you needed was a hereditary monarchy that didn't divide the empire, much like Kublai did, and like the Il Khanate also did. The Golden Horde did so as well, but only after the empire was pretty much divided irreparably. The Chagatai collapsed due to the divisions.

Just give them a monarchy and make the generals and family members more loyal and then maybe, just maybe, it will survive and grow.

Wasn't that the same problem that broke up Charlemagne's Empire? Both the Mongols and Franks stipulated splitting the lands between surviving sons.
 
If Genghis lived another ten years he might have tackled this issue. As it was he was to busy tackling too many fronts.
 

elkarlo

Banned
What if the Mongols spent more time and effort trying to keep China? That is the real key to longivity for the Mongols. Without China their southern flank was not only exposed, but they get a new powerful neighbor.
 
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