Moltke sticks to Schlieffen's concept

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Deleted member 1487

Apologies if this has been done before, but I wanted to go over it again with a fresh perspective. What if Helmut von Moltke the younger had stuck to the original concept of Schlieffen's plan by keeping the right wing strong. This means keeping the deployment plan the same as OTL, but as the offensive develops, instead of launching pinning attacks in to Lorraine and the teeth of the French fortress system, the German left wing sits on the defensives and lets the French offensive continue to develop? They can then also act as a reserve for the right wing to draw on and this means that the 6.5 Ersatz divisions that OTL were misused for the attack instead allow the troops besieging forts in Belgium to rejoin their units, such as von Besler's 3rd reserve corps at Antwerp, one of von Hausen's reserve corps at Namur, a brigade from the 1st army at Brussels, and the 5th corps at Etain.

Does this influence the battle at the Marne and allow for the Germans to avoid retreat? Does it also mean that the French get stuck in Alsace-Lorraine?
 
Apologies if this has been done before, but I wanted to go over it again with a fresh perspective. What if Helmut von Moltke the younger had stuck to the original concept of Schlieffen's plan by keeping the right wing strong. This means keeping the deployment plan the same as OTL, but as the offensive develops, instead of launching pinning attacks in to Lorraine and the teeth of the French fortress system, the German left wing sits on the defensives and lets the French offensive continue to develop? They can then also act as a reserve for the right wing to draw on and this means that the 6.5 Ersatz divisions that OTL were misused for the attack instead allow the troops besieging forts in Belgium to rejoin their units, such as von Besler's 3rd reserve corps at Antwerp, one of von Hausen's reserve corps at Namur, a brigade from the 1st army at Brussels, and the 5th corps at Etain.

Does this influence the battle at the Marne and allow for the Germans to avoid retreat? Does it also mean that the French get stuck in Alsace-Lorraine?

Schlieffen's plan was a pipe dream which is why Moltke changed it. Schlieffen had INSANE marching schedules and reserve allocations. He had the entire vosages sector defended by 4 landwher divisions... the eastern front was also supposed to be entirely defended by landwher... he also was for violating the Dutch borders which would necessarily extend the Germany front. Say what you might about Moltke at least he attempted to inject a small dose of reality into German war planning
 
Amateurs talk tactics generals talk logistics

Does this make Schlieffen an amateur? Of course somebody is probably going to object that there really wasn't a Schlieffen Plan and we can get that argument once again.

Because the Germans were outrunning their supply lines the Schlieffen Plan is not going to achieve its primary objective of destroying most of the French Army (taking Paris was a secondary objective) In fact if the right wing is stronger than the logistical problem is worsened (IIRC Keegan makes this point)

The best case for the stronger right is that the Germans may be (it's a devil is in the details thingy) able to hold on the Marne not the Aisne

While Moltke has some serious flaws he is IMHO not as bad as usual portrait (it seems that BW sort of agrees with me) I tried to give the man a more complex image in Operation Unicorn.
 
I'm not sure what the benefit of sitting on the Marne is as opposed to the Aisne, besides being a few kilometers closer to Paris. The Aisne is a far superior defensive position.

That said, again, Schlieffen's plan was a bit unrealistic, Moltke's was about as close as you could get to it without East Prussia and Alsace-Lorraine being overrun in the first two weeks of war, and the German right did its thing about as well as you could, considering the logistics. Running through the Netherlands would have made the logistics situation only slightly better, and the delay of having to get through another neutral army as well as provide covering forces to prevent a Dutch descent on the supply lines would have eliminated any conceivable benefit to the German right, in my opinion.
 
Tom_B: I don't think it makes Schlieffen an amateur. The amateurs were the people responsible for so mishandling what Bismarck had left behind that the General Staff had to try to "win early" in an inevitable two front war. Calling Schlieffen an amateur would be like calling the Japanese amateurs for the planning for Leyte Gulf: they were in an awful situation, and they gave their best effort to do something.
 

Deleted member 1487

Perhaps I should have clarified a bit. I don't mean that Moltke changes anything to do with HIS deployments, rather, he keeps to the game plan by sticking the Ersatz divisions where they were intended to go, Belgium, while the left wing acts as a purely defensive wall, which would also provide reserves to the right wing as needed.

Also, the major advantage of holding farther forward is that the fortress of Verdun can be cut off, as it very nearly was by the successes of the German 5th army, but was forced to withdraw thanks to the retreat to the Aisne. If the Marne line is held, von Strantz's 5th corps can cut the rail running through Troyon/St. Mihiel while the main part of the 5th army sits on the other rail line to the fortress system. Furthermore, the German center can then follow up on its offensive successes against the French, while in the West the right wing can keep the battle forward, allowing reinforcing troops to come up on their right and establish a line on or beyond the Somme river, leaving the Channel ports and Belgian army behind German lines, waiting to be eliminated.
 
Perhaps I should have clarified a bit. I don't mean that Moltke changes anything to do with HIS deployments, rather, he keeps to the game plan by sticking the Ersatz divisions where they were intended to go, Belgium, while the left wing acts as a purely defensive wall, which would also provide reserves to the right wing as needed.

Also, the major advantage of holding farther forward is that the fortress of Verdun can be cut off, as it very nearly was by the successes of the German 5th army, but was forced to withdraw thanks to the retreat to the Aisne. If the Marne line is held, von Strantz's 5th corps can cut the rail running through Troyon/St. Mihiel while the main part of the 5th army sits on the other rail line to the fortress system. Furthermore, the German center can then follow up on its offensive successes against the French, while in the West the right wing can keep the battle forward, allowing reinforcing troops to come up on their right and establish a line on or beyond the Somme river, leaving the Channel ports and Belgian army behind German lines, waiting to be eliminated.

Ah, I see what you're getting at. I don't agree with all of your points, though.

Firstl, Verdun isn't going to fall, because it won't be as easily threatened. If there isn't any pressure from the German left (2nd Army), Verdun won't be simply cut off by a move from the Marne. Besides, any move from the Marne is going to be a very attractive spot for a French counterattack.

Second, you can either have the German center follow up on its successes, or you can have the right keep "more right", but not both. We aren't talking about a couple of extra armies here. The German center is exhausted, and you'll need all of the Ersatz divisions you can get to keep momentum going past the Marne. Besides...it isn't really realistic for the Ersatz divisions to go to the extreme right to "do their own thing" until the Battle of the Marne has been fought and won or lost. That is the point of attack.

Third...I wonder if those divisions will even get there in time to have any effect on the battles of very early September. The German logistics through Belgium and northern France is extremely taxed at this point as it is.
 
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Germany wins the Race to the Sea by having more troops moving to the area sooner than the Anglo-French and by the end of 1914 hold the French Channel coast to the mouth of the Somme or so. This puts the Germans into the positison of strategic offensive-tactical defensive against Britain as well as France, which is the strongest form of warfare. As a result Germany probably wins WW1.
 

Deleted member 1487

Ah, I see what you're getting at. I don't agree with all of your points, though.

Firstl, Verdun isn't going to fall, because it won't be as easily threatened. If there isn't any pressure from the German left (2nd Army), Verdun won't be simply cut off by a move from the Marne. Besides, any move from the Marne is going to be a very attractive spot for a French counterattack.

Second, you can either have the German center follow up on its successes, or you can have the right keep "more right", but not both. We aren't talking about a couple of extra armies here. The German center is exhausted, and you'll need all of the Ersatz divisions you can get to keep momentum going past the Marne. Besides...it isn't really realistic for the Ersatz divisions to go to the extreme right to "do their own thing" until the Battle of the Marne has been fought and won or lost. That is the point of attack.

Third...I wonder if those divisions will even get there in time to have any effect on the battles of very early September. The German logistics through Belgium and northern France is extremely taxed at this point as it is.

A couple of factual errors that need to be corrected: the Ersatz divisions were historically sent to Rupprecht of Bavaria's 6th army and von Heeringen's 7th army, NOT the Crown Prince's 5th army. He did not need these to maintain his advance where he was smacking around Sarrail's 3rd army something fierce.

Also, historically the German center was kicking ass and taking names when the order was issued to fall back. The German 4th and 5th armies were incredulous that all their gains were being thrown away at the point of victory.

Furthermore, the use of the Ersatz divisions was not in their offensive power, which they had little of, but rather the fact that they could hold down forts undersiege while the more useful reserve and active corps are freed up for the front. Maubeuge (not Namur as I erroneously stated before) held up 2.5 divisions by itself, which could have been better used at the front with the 2nd army. Same holds true for von Besler's corps at Antwerp and the brigade of active infantry holding Brussels. All these jobs were supposed to be conducted by the Ersatz units, but these were instead used in Lorraine on the offensive. Here they would be used as intended to besiege forts and hold supply lines, not use up valuable rail lines by moving to the front. Instead they would relieve these units to rejoin their armies. Basically it would mean two extra corps and a division would be freed up to use during the Marne on the right wing.

This has important effects at the Marne. Even showing up late will have an effect, as the brigade from Brussels did when it helped blunt the French 6th army on September 9th as von Lepel's men attacked into the rear of the French. Add in an extra corps and thing change dramatically. Throw in another 3 divisions and the retreat halts on the Marne and the center can continue to advance, separating the French 3rd and 4th armies, while continuing to cut off and encircle the 3rd army by throwing it back on Verdun/crushing it between von Strantz's 5th corps and the rest of the 5th army.

I also don't mean that Verdun to fall immediately, but if the German line holds on the Somme, Verdun is cut off and WILL fall eventually. It may take months, but it will happen. In the meantime, French attention is focused on the center instead of outflanking the German line in the West.

Also, the creation of a new 7th army at Brussels can begin sooner, which means that it can arrive where it is needed at a crucial junction, either between the 1st and 2nd armies, or on their right.
 
I also don't mean that Verdun to fall immediately, but if the German line holds on the Somme, Verdun is cut off and WILL fall eventually. It may take months, but it will happen. In the meantime, French attention is focused on the center instead of outflanking the German line in the West.

Do you mean the Marne? The Somme is a long way from Verdun.
 
If Moltke sticks to his own original concept (as described by Ludendorff), not only the Ersatz Divisionen will be moved to Flanders immediately, 6th Army will be sent there as well - after the initial French attack in Lorraine has been repulsed.
 
could realistically germany afford to loose at least Alsace-Lorraine to a french push?
(adopting S plan "as it was" would mean that).
Then during '14 the situation would be:
1) french in A-L
2) germans still swamped in belgium (maybe a little faster than OTL, but still swamped)
3) german opinion asking "what the hell the Army is doing?"
4) kaiser changing head of Army (Cadorna-like)
5) utter confusion
 
I am still a little bit hazy about what is going here. But the best case for the Germans would be that VII Reserve Corps is freed from the siege of Mauberge and fills the gap between First and Second Army holding off the B.E.F. on the Marne long enough for Kluck to badly hurt (but not completely destroy) French Sixth Army after which Kluck hurriedly shifts 2 corps to the Marne. Exhaustion and logistics create a temporary pause on the Marne.

Meanwhile the German Fourth Army prevails at Revigny and Fifth Army at Troyon (though they did take heavy casualties there) and link up trapping most of Sarrail's Third Army in and around Verdun.

The transfer of Seventh and then Sixth Army to the west are accelerated. The Germans retain Amiens and drive towards Abbeville. It now gets complicated but the best case sees the Germans taking the Channel Ports and eliminating most or all of the Belgian Army. There is a chance that King Albert will throw himself on the mercy of Kaiser Wilhelm.
 
Hmmm...stick with the plan which involved numerous divisions and entire corps at the time Schlieffen wrote the plan out which did not exist?:D
 
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