Mohammed Makes Islam a form of Judaism

WI instead of creating an entirely new religion, Mohammed ties his religious theories into Judaism. Thus Islam develops as a form of Judaism, albeit a more Arab form. How does this change Middle Eastern history?
 
Islam is and Arab form of Judaism.

No, Mizrahi Judaism is the Arab form of Judaism.

Islam is a completely different religion sharing a bit of history and laws with Judaism.

Even if Mohammed did make Islam officially a sect of Judaism, I doubt it would have changed anything: it still would have been different enough that the existing Jewish communities would largely have not accepted it, and the Muslims in OTL treated the Jews okay, so I doubt much would change there. Maybe if you elaborated on what "more Arab form of Judaism" means. Is Mohammed still the 5th big prophet? Do we still have 5 pillars? Do we rock the hajj? Do we follow halal (as opposed to the somewhat more strenuous kashrut)? Also note that Judaism isn't even remotely a proselytizing religion; if we keep that, you might as well say, "What would the effect be if the Muslims never conquered significant portions of the world?"
 
No, Mizrahi Judaism is the Arab form of Judaism.

Islam is a completely different religion sharing a bit of history and laws with Judaism.

Even if Mohammed did make Islam officially a sect of Judaism, I doubt it would have changed anything: it still would have been different enough that the existing Jewish communities would largely have not accepted it, and the Muslims in OTL treated the Jews okay, so I doubt much would change there. Maybe if you elaborated on what "more Arab form of Judaism" means. Is Mohammed still the 5th big prophet? Do we still have 5 pillars? Do we rock the hajj? Do we follow halal (as opposed to the somewhat more strenuous kashrut)? Also note that Judaism isn't even remotely a proselytizing religion; if we keep that, you might as well say, "What would the effect be if the Muslims never conquered significant portions of the world?"

I think you know what I meant. If this "Arab Judaism" were more strictly Jewish, it would just be Judaism. Islam is Judaic monotheism through an Arab lens. I'm not really sure what the OP is asking, to be honest. I'm not sure how much closer you could get to Judaism in the 7th c than Islam and still be a different religion.
 
I think you know what I meant. If this "Arab Judaism" were more strictly Jewish, it would just be Judaism. Islam is Judaic monotheism through an Arab lens. I'm not really sure what the OP is asking, to be honest. I'm not sure how much closer you could get to Judaism in the 7th c than Islam and still be a different religion.

Well to be fair the OP isn't asking for this sect to be a different religion, just an Arabic-brand of Judaism. And maybe it will still ban eating Rabbits, etc....
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
From a layman's perspective, Islam is essentially a proselyte version of Judaism. It's certainly much closer to it than Christianity.
Bernard Lewis spoke to this very issue, and while I don't agree with much of what he says, I think it's worth reproducing what he said here.
Nowadays, it has become the custom in the West to speak of “the Judaeo-Christian tradition” and sometimes to contrast it with what is perceived as a different Islamic tradition. The term is new, and in earlier times would probably have been found equally offensive on both sides of the hyphen. But it designates a genuine historical and cultural phenomenon. Christianity retained the Jewish Bible and, renaming it the Old Testament, added a New Testament to it. Islam dropped both. One need only think of the immense significance of the Old Testament in Christian literature, music, and art to see the importance of this shared Judaeo-Christian element.

But one could, with equal validity – referring to the past if not to the present – speak of a Judaeo-Islamic tradition or even of an Islamo-Christian tradition. Judaism and Islam are both legal religions, believing in a divinely ordained law which regulates every aspect of life – public and private, civil and criminal, domestic and public, ritual and dietary, by the same authority and with the same sanctions. The Christian dichotomy between God and Caesar, church and state, imperium and sacerdotium, is alien both to the Judaic and the Islamic traditions. There is also a Judaeo-Muslim theological affinity. Jews and Muslims agree on a rigorous and uncompromising monotheism and reject basic Christian doctrines which they see as conflicting with that belief.

There are other criteria which would place Islam and Christianity together on one side and Judaism alone on the other. Judaism categorically rejects polytheism and idolatry, but otherwise makes no claim to exclusive truth. Monotheists of all peoples and persuasions, according to rabbinic teaching, have a share in the world to come. For the rabbis, Judaism is for Jews and those who care to join them; nobody is under any obligation to do so. Judaism claims its truths are universal but not exclusive, and in this respect it seems closer to the religions of Asia than to either Islam or Christianity. Christianity and Islam both agree that there is only one final revelation of God’s truth and that salvation can only be achieved by that truth, preferably from its own authorized exponents. Christian and Muslim alike shared this triumphalism, each convinced that his faith was the one true, whole, and final religion, and that his cause would inevitably triumph. Muslims like Christians, knew that those who did not share their beliefs would burn in everlasting hellfire. Unlike Christians, they saw no need to anticipate the divine judgement in this world.

Both possessors of God’s last word believed they had a duty to bring the word to all humanity, that is to convert the infidels, and to create an oecumene of their own in the process. The two religions contested the same Mediterranean world as the first step toward ultimate supremacy. This led to the long struggle of jihad and crusade, conquest and reconquest, through the centuries.​
 
WI instead of creating an entirely new religion, Mohammed ties his religious theories into Judaism. Thus Islam develops as a form of Judaism, albeit a more Arab form. How does this change Middle Eastern history?

There is considerable evidence that early islam was primarily a heretical strain of Judiasm.
 
There is considerable evidence that early islam was primarily a heretical strain of Judiasm.

I'd be very interested to see this.

As for Islam being an Arabised form of Judaism, or whatever, that may be true in a historical sense, but there are too many differences; at the least, I'd say that it may have been started by people imitating the Jews, but I doubt Jews started it. I say that because Islam gets some important big ideas right (one god, mostly), but misses the details: the last two books of the Torah are essentially a laundry list of how Jews should live their lives. Histories suggest that Jews did in fact live their lives in this way until relatively recently (early modern period at the earliest), whereas Muslims don't. Not even a little. Islam lacks the emphasis of scholarship (yes, I know that Muslim scholars were among the best, but Judaism mandates universal literacy), the emphasis on cleanliness (halal << kashrute in terms of difficulty), and adds some ideas of centraliation (notably the hajj) that had completely vanished from Judaism 700 years after the Temple was destroyed. Islam is also intensely proselytizing, which isthe opposite of Judaism: if anything, traditional Judaism discourages conversion.
 
I think that AHP is simply making the point that Islam is a continuation of the abrahamic faith begun by Judaism - and it is theologically far closer to Judaism than Christianity.

However, I think that by elevating Jesus to a particularly exalted place among prophets before Mohammad, and by accepting a number of very "chistian" claims regarding his mother, birth, miracles, and ascenscion, Islam was in some ways closer to being a Christian heresy than a form of Judaism - and that is likely to affect how contemporary Jews see this new faith. Also, I don't see how anyone could make his revelations part of the Jewish tradition unless contemporary Jews "admitted" him to the fold. They did not. It really doesn't matter if Mohammad considered his religion an "Arabic" form of Judaism if contemporary Jewish communities do not consider Islam Jewish.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I say that because Islam gets some important big ideas right (one god, mostly), but misses the details: the last two books of the Torah are essentially a laundry list of how Jews should live their lives. Histories suggest that Jews did in fact live their lives in this way until relatively recently (early modern period at the earliest), whereas Muslims don't. Not even a little.
Care to elaborate? I have to say, I'm not sure where you're going with this. Muslims observe extremely high standards of ritual purity and praxis is essential to the faith. It shares that much with Judaism. I've studied both the Talmud and the Sunna, and whenever I turn to one or the other, I can't shake the feeling that I've seen this all before.

Note, for example, that all Muslims are required to perform ablutions at a minimum before every prayer, rinsing their eyes, ears, nose mouth, hands and feet thoroughly.

Islam lacks the emphasis of scholarship (yes, I know that Muslim scholars were among the best, but Judaism mandates universal literacy), the emphasis on cleanliness (halal << kashrute in terms of difficulty), and adds some ideas of centraliation (notably the hajj) that had completely vanished from Judaism 700 years after the Temple was destroyed. Islam is also intensely proselytizing, which isthe opposite of Judaism: if anything, traditional Judaism discourages conversion.
You're right about the proselytism, but Islam is extremely decentralized. The Hajj is a ritual, nothing more, which only recently became affordable or even attainable for the majority of Muslims (historically only those who could afford to go on Hajj did so) and I'm not sure what relevance it bears to the question of whether Islam is "centralized" or not any more than the phrase "Next year in Jerusalem" uttered during the Yom Kippur service or the Passover Seder bear upon the centralization of Judaism.

Also, Islam too mandates universal literacy, although obviously the Muslim world as a whole is far from achieving this mandate. It's worth noting, however, that the least literate Muslims in the world are Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries, like Bhutan, Nepal, and Cambodia; all Muslim countries are pointedly pursuing universal literacy for both men and women.
 
Care to elaborate? I have to say, I'm not sure where you're going with this. Muslims observe extremely high standards of ritual purity and praxis is essential to the faith. It shares that much with Judaism. I've studied both the Talmud and the Sunna, and whenever I turn to one or the other, I can't shake the feeling that I've seen this all before.

Note, for example, that all Muslims are required to perform ablutions at a minimum before every prayer, rinsing their eyes, ears, nose mouth, hands and feet thoroughly.

Yes, but the specifics are different. I'm not trying to insult Islam; it's as good a religion as any. I'm trying to say that it looks like Islam is Judaism as implemented by a bunch of non-Jews who cribbed the Jews' notes.

You're right about the proselytism, but Islam is extremely decentralized. The Hajj is a ritual, nothing more, which only recently became affordable or even attainable for the majority of Muslims (historically only those who could afford to go on Hajj did so) and I'm not sure what relevance it bears to the question of whether Islam is "centralized" or not any more than the phrase "Next year in Jerusalem" uttered during the Yom Kippur service or the Passover Seder bear upon the centralization of Judaism.
[/quote]

Islam spent its first century (the one where it converted a third of the world) as a theocracy; now, Judaism was also a de facto theocracy for a while, but that ended centuries before Islam.

Also, Islam too mandates universal literacy, although obviously the Muslim world as a whole is far from achieving this mandate. It's worth noting, however, that the least literate Muslims in the world are Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries, like Bhutan, Nepal, and Cambodia; all Muslim countries are pointedly pursuing universal literacy for both men and women.

Fair enough. I apologize for my ignorance on this matter.

The one thing that really, really convinces me that Islam isn't a Jewish sect originally is the proselytism/forced conversion thing (and please, don't deny the forced conversions. "Convert or you'll be a second class citizen" is only slightly higher than "convert or we'll kill you". You cannot convince me that entire population decided of their own free will to embrace the word of Mohammed without severe pressure).

tl;dr: I have nothing against Islam, it's a fun religion, and aside from the whackjobs, it's awesome (and Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc all have their own whackjobs, so it balances it out). But I don't think it started as a Jewish sect. It's one thing to just look at the scripture, but the temporal trappings should also be examined, and these are just too different.
 

Ibn Warraq

Banned
From a layman's perspective, Islam is essentially a proselyte version of Judaism. It's certainly much closer to it than Christianity.

I can understand thinking Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity and such a point is arguable, but I think a much more accurate statement would be that Christianity and Islam have far more in common with each other than either has with Judaism.

Granted, I also think that Eastern Orthodox Christianity is far more like Shia Islam than it is like the Baptist Church, though Leo might disagree with me.

Abdul Hadi Pasha
Islam is and Arab form of Judaism.

Abdul Hadi Pasha
I think you know what I meant. If this "Arab Judaism" were more strictly Jewish, it would just be Judaism. Islam is Judaic monotheism through an Arab lens. I'm not really sure what the OP is asking, to be honest. I'm not sure how much closer you could get to Judaism in the 7th c than Islam and still be a different religion.

I think Islam has been far too influenced by Christianity to be considered "a form of Judaism" unless one wants to argue that Christianity is also a form of Judaism.

Leaving aside that the Muslim concept of hell and the Devil is clearly far more influenced by Christianity than Judaism, Muslims believe in a) the virgin birth, b) that Jesus was the messiah, c) in the second coming and d) the final battle between Jesus and the anti-Christ.

Now, the government of Israel has actually specifically declared that "Jews" who believed that Jesus was the messiah are practicing a religion other than Judaism and if they are immigrants, in most instances, they are stripped of their citizenship and expelled, and this is true even if they are of Jewish descent and don't believe that Jesus was divine.

To the best of my knowledge, every major Rabbi in the world has agreed with Israel's decision and that believing Jesus is the messiah is incompatible with Judaism, even Reform and Reconstructionist Rabbis.

Atreus
There is considerable evidence that early islam was primarily a heretical strain of Judiasm.

I've never heard this and that certainly isn't what Muhammad thought. Beyond that, once again, I think you could make a much more persuasive case that Muslims are heretical Christians, though I would object to this.
 

Ibn Warraq

Banned
So where are we regarding the comming of the Messiah in this new Arab Judaism?

His name Issa/Jehoshua/Jesus, his mother was Mary, his uncle was Moses, he was born a virgin, Christians falsely think he was the son of God and that he was crucified and upon Judgement Day he will return to battle and defeat the Anti-Messiah.

In all fairness to the Christians, it's understandable that they mistakenly believe he was executed because God tricked the Romans into crucifying Judas in his place.

Edit: In retrospect I really should clarify my "his uncle was Moses" remark before start wondering if Muslims believe this. No, they don't. What I was jokingly referring to was a line in the Quran where Mary is identified as "the sister of Aaron," and in such a case like this one would be identified by the eldest sibling. For those who don't remember, Aaron was Moses' older brother and Moses also had a sister named Mary. Some critics have speculated that the authors of the Quran were probably a bit confused wanted to link Jesus and Moses. It's certainly possible, but I have no idea how likely it is, I was just trying to be funny.

Also, Leo, thanks for the correction.
 
Last edited:

Leo Caesius

Banned
In all fairness to the Christians, it's understandable that they mistakenly believe he was executed because God tricked the Romans into crucifying Judas in his place.
Well, actually the Qur'an said that He merely made it appear as if Jesus had been crucified. The claim that it was Judas who was crucified in Jesus' stead appears first in al-Tabari alongside a number of other theories, none of which al-Tabari privileges.
 
Top