Mohammed confessing to Christianity

[Ibn Warraq]

.

Actually, for most of history, Westerners couldn't decide whether Islam was some kind of Christian heresy (hence "Mohammedanism")

Obviously, I think labeling Islam to be a form of Christian heresy absurd, but it does make a certain amount of sense. I remember one Christian theologian(I can't remember who) argueing that if you believed in the virgin birth, the second coming, that Jesus was the Messiah, and you followed his teachings, then you were a Christian.

Well Muslims don't believe that Jesus was divine and believe that the crucifixion was an illusion and that IIRC the Romans mistakenly crucified Judas, but they do in virgin birth, that he was the Messiah and that he will return to Earth to usher in Youmud Din(Judgement Day). Also, IIRC they think he will battle Al-Dajjal(The Anti-Christ).

Having said that, I'm sure most Muslims would be either amused or offended, depending on their disposition to be called Christians.

 

[Max Sinister]

@Ibn Warraq: Since you mentioned "virgin birth": Although many Christians understand it that way, the term is not correct - the real term would be "immaculate conception", which means that mary was free of the original sin, not that she was a virgin when she became mother of Jesus. What do the Muslims believe in?

 

[Quiet_Man]

@Ibn Warraq: Since you mentioned "virgin birth": Although many Christians understand it that way, the term is not correct - the real term would be "immaculate conception", which means that mary was free of the original sin, not that she was a virgin when she became mother of Jesus. What do the Muslims believe in?

Only Roman Catholics believe this and there is still some debate as to whether or not the Church of Rome is Christian. Just ask Ian paisley.

 

[Max Sinister]

there is still some debate as to whether or not the Church of Rome is Christian. Just ask Ian paisley.

I'm neither Catholic nor religious at all, but that's ridiculous.

 

[Quiet_Man]

I'm neither Catholic nor religious at all, but that's ridicilous.

Is it?

Assuming that the basis of Christianity is the Bible (as Christians see it the word of God) then any Church doctrine which strays from the word of God as it is written has to lend doubt as to the validity or orthodoxy of the organisation preaching this change.

There is no, and never has been any basis for the concept of immaculate conception in the bible. The verse in Isaiah which is translated virgin in the early Greek translations, actually translates as young woman in Hebrew. Furthermore there is mention in the Gospels of Jesus turning his Mother, brothers and sisters away from meeting him. That again would invalidate immaculate conception.

I'm not saying Roman Catholics aren't Christians, but some of there beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny. Same with any religion though.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, explain it gently I really don't want a flame war over this.

 

[zoomar]

@Ibn Warraq: Since you mentioned "virgin birth": Although many Christians understand it that way, the term is not correct - the real term would be "immaculate conception", which means that mary was free of the original sin, not that she was a virgin when she became mother of Jesus. What do the Muslims believe in?

I think we are mixing things up. "Virgin birth" is a perfectly acceptable term for the nearly universal Christian belief that Jesus Christ was conceived without the benefit of sexual intercourse between Mary and Joseph (or any other man). He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Unless I am wrong, "Immaculate Conception" is far broader and pretty much limited to Catholicism. This holds that Mary herself was completely without sin (ie, among other things never had sex even after Christ was born and she herself was in some unexplained way also not the product of a sexual union).

Many non-Catholics are comfortable with the notion that Mary produced Jesus's brothers (they were real brothers) thru sexual liaison with Joseph, and even can consider the possibility that she was not a virgin before Jesus's birth - just that Jesus's conception and birth was miraculous.

 

[zoomar]

I'm not saying Roman Catholics aren't Christians, but some of there beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny. Same with any religion though.

It sounds to me like that is exactly what you are implying. I guess Teilhard was right after all. Time to shut this thread down.

 

[Ran Exilis]

There is a belief that the Kaaba marked the location where Abraham brought his son for the sacrifice. I'm not sure whether this belief originated with Muhammad or he merely employed it for his own purposes, but he certainly claimed that he was cleansing it and restoring it to its original function (just as Christ chased the money changers from the Temple).

The Muslims weren't really into destroying pagan centers of worship. Their general MO was to coopt them and turn them into mosques.

IIRC, Muslims also believe that the Ka'aba was originally built by Adam as the first shrine dedicated to the one God.

About the Ka'aba's association with Abraham: if that pre-Islamic Arabian monotheistic sect that is mentioned by the 5th century Christian writer Sozomenus really existed, and existed somewhere in or around Mecca, then it is quite likely that this association of the location of the Ka'aba and the location where Abraham is said to have nearly sacrificed his son came from this monotheistic sect.

Obviously, I think labeling Islam to be a form of Christian heresy absurd, but it does make a certain amount of sense. I remember one Christian theologian(I can't remember who) argueing that if you believed in the virgin birth, the second coming, that Jesus was the Messiah, and you followed his teachings, then you were a Christian.

Well Muslims don't believe that Jesus was divine and believe that the crucifixion was an illusion and that IIRC the Romans mistakenly crucified Judas, but they do in virgin birth, that he was the Messiah and that he will return to Earth to usher in Youmud Din(Judgement Day). Also, IIRC they think he will battle Al-Dajjal(The Anti-Christ).

That reminds me to what a Muslim once explained me several things about what Islam teaches about the Dajjal.

And he indeed also mentioned that battle between Jesus and the Dajjal.

This is what he told me: "There are going to be great battles between the Muslims and the followers of Dajjal. Finally, Isa ibn Maryam (alaihi sallam) is going to descend from the minaret of the Great Masjid of Damascus, and lead the Islamic army in battle against Dajjal. The Dajjal will dissolve like salt when he views Jesus (alaihi sallam), and the tribulation of Antichrist shall be ended."

 

[Ibn Warraq]

@Ibn Warraq: Since you mentioned "virgin birth": Although many Christians understand it that way, the term is not correct - the real term would be "immaculate conception", which means that mary was free of the original sin, not that she was a virgin when she became mother of Jesus. What do the Muslims believe in?

Well, I'd never known there was such a distinction.What the Quran says about the birth is, "And she who was chaste, therefore we breathed life into her(something) of our spirit and made her and her son a token for all people."(Q 21:91)However the Quran makes it very clear Jesus is not the son of God and in fact condemns such belief as blashpemous lies claiming, "In blasphemy indeed are those that say Allah is Christ the son of Mary."(Q 5:17)The Quran also specifically condemns people who believe in the Trinity claiming "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo!Allah is the third of three."(Q 5:73)Ironically enough, it seems that whoever wrote the Quran, or at least part of it may have actually misunderstood the Christian concept of the Trinity.The Quran says, "O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: thak me and my mother for two Gods besides Allah?"(Q 5:116) Which would seem to indicate that the author of this passage thought the Holy Trinity consisted of The Father, Son and Mary, instead of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Naturally, the last sentence is quite controversial and subject to lots of debate.

 

[Scarecrow]

Muhammad considered Islam to be the religion of Abraham and his descendants the Hebrews until Christ came along, whereupon God furnished him with another revelation, which was authoritative until Muhammad came along. In his view, Christians who declined to accept Muhammad's message and his status as a prophet of God were schismatics (!), and Jews who declined to accept either Jesus or Muhammad were guilty of the same twice over (!!).

The Qur'an clearly identifies itself as the legitimate successor to the earlier scriptures - called the Torah (Tawrat), the Gospels (Injil), and a third book which is probably the Psalms (Zabur). These are all considered revealed books and legitimate for spiritual guidance, except where they disagree with the Qur'an, in which case the text is clearly corrupt.

Actually, for most of history, Westerners couldn't decide whether Islam was some kind of Christian heresy (hence "Mohammedanism") or just plain idolatry. It was widely believed throughout the western world that the Kaaba contained an idol of the moon named Termagant or Tervagant (probably a corruption of Trivagante, the "thrice wandering" moon, which went by the names Luna in the heavens, Diana on earth, and Proserpina in the underworld) to which the Muslims prostrated in prayer. In the Chanson de Roland, the Muslims are depicted as following a blasphemous trinity of Apollo, Tervagant, and Mohammad.

This myth is perpetuated even today by Jack Chick, among others. For my money, the funniest thing is that, of all the possible accusations one could levy at Islam, idolatry is just about the most nonsensical, given how iconoclastic Muslims are.

Isn't there a therory that the Kaaba is made from a meteortite?

Also I recall reading something about how the early Muslims thought the Christians worshiped three gods, you know, the Trinity and all.

 

[Fabilius]

Is it?

Assuming that the basis of Christianity is the Bible (as Christians see it the word of God) then any Church doctrine which strays from the word of God as it is written has to lend doubt as to the validity or orthodoxy of the organisation preaching this change.

There is no, and never has been any basis for the concept of immaculate conception in the bible. The verse in Isaiah which is translated virgin in the early Greek translations, actually translates as young woman in Hebrew. Furthermore there is mention in the Gospels of Jesus turning his Mother, brothers and sisters away from meeting him. That again would invalidate immaculate conception.

I'm not saying Roman Catholics aren't Christians, but some of there beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny. Same with any religion though.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, explain it gently I really don't want a flame war over this.

Well, how do you define a christian. Is it just the ones that believe in the bible fundamentally speaking?

If roman catholicism wouldn´t be defined as a christian faith, then I´m confused.

It sounds to me like that is exactly what you are implying. I guess Teilhard was right after all. Time to shut this thread down.

Why, noone is insulted as far as I know.

 

[Ran Exilis]

Isn't there a therory that the Kaaba is made from a meteortite?

The Black Stone that is fitted in the corner of the Ka'aba is most propably a meteorite stone.

The rest of the Ka'aba is made from "ordinary" stones from Earth.

Also I recall reading something about how the early Muslims thought the Christians worshiped three gods, you know, the Trinity and all.

Not just early Muslims; most Muslim polemics againest Christianity regard the Trinity a system being three gods,
and many Muslim polemicists accuse Christians of polytheism because of this.

 

[Leo Caesius]

No, but there's a small black stone in the corner of the Kaaba that people use to keep track of the number of times they've circled the Kaaba. It allegedly came from the sky but may actually be a piece of glass created when an actual meteorite collided with the ground.

The veneration of aerolyths or betyls (in Hebrew, Beth-El) is a common feature of ancient Near Eastern religions.

Isn't there a therory that the Kaaba is made from a meteortite?

Also I recall reading something about how the early Muslims thought the Christians worshiped three gods, you know, the Trinity and all.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Not just early Muslims; most Muslim polemics againest Christianity regard the Trinity a system being three gods, and many Muslim polemicists accuse Christians of polytheism because of this.

Though to be fair it must be noted that there is no Qur'anic basis for this.

From al-Ma'ida (Surah 5), 82nd verse:

You will find that the people most hostile to those who believe are the Jews and the polytheists, and you will find that the most friendly to those who believe are those who say, "We are Christians." This is because there are priests and monks among them, and because they do not behave arrogantly.​

Clearly, Christians are being contrasted with Jews and polytheists here, thus all three must be completely distinct groups.

From Al Imran (Surah 3), 55th verse:

Then God said, "Jesus! I am taking you and raising you up to Me, to purge you from those who disbelieve; I will set those who follow you above those who don't believe in the Day of Resurrection; then I will make all of you return to Me and make a judgment concerning whatever it was that you used to quarrel about."​

"Those who disbelieve" in Arabic are the kuffar, the "infidels." From these two passages alone it is obvious that Christians are neither polytheists nor infidels - and, I can assure you that this is remarkably clear for the Qur'an.

Naturally, many of the earliest converts to Islam were Christians, and a religion that was nakedly hostile to their beliefs would obviously not have succeeded so well. The biggest stumbling block from a theological perspective is the Islamic attitude towards the Trinity (and, in the case of Al Imran 116, excessive devotion of Mary) but it would be a mistake to assume that the average Eastern Christian of the time held precisely the same views on this issue as the average Protestant today or even the contemporary theologians. Certainly some Shiites today are condemned for their excessive devotion to Ali, but they are still in a completely separate class from the polytheists and the infidels.

 

[Wendell]

This prompts the question of how different might Islam be if revealed to someone other than Muhammad?

 

[Ibn Warraq]

Though to be fair it must be noted that there is no Qur'anic basis for this.

</p>
I will agree that on balance the Quran makes clear that Christians are not Polytheists, but I think saying there is NO basis is a bit strong.I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to think that the Quran condemns Christians as unbelievers for believeing in the Trinity with passages like:&quot;They surely DISBELIEVE who say: Lo! Allah is the third of Three.&quot;(5:73)Similarly, I think it's reasonable for some to believe the Quran condemns Christians as unbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ when it says:&quot;They indeed have DISBELIEVED who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary.&quot;(5:17)Now there are plenty of passages which would seem to contradict these, including passages which explicitly state Christians and Jews can go to heaven which obviously polytheists can't, but AFAIK no cleric has declared them to have been abrogated.Now admittedly, I can't read the Quran in Arabic, but I'm using Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall's translation and I understand he's fairly well respected.

 

[Ibn Warraq]

Hmm. my friend's computer seems to be misbehaving. Apologies for the lack of paragraphs.

 

[fortyseven]

I never knew Christian leaders equated Islam with idolatry that's so messed up it's funny.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Now admittedly, I can't read the Quran in Arabic, but I'm using Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall's translation and I understand he's fairly well respected.

It's not a question of translation, and not even a question of contradiction, really.

Note that it explicitly says that Christians are neither infidels nor disbelievers. As for those who disbelieve, they're the ones who say "God is the third of three." Is it so difficult to imagine Christians who are Nontrinitarian? No - there were lots of them at one point, and they didn't all suddenly disappear in 325 with a puff of smoke. I suspect that there were probably plenty of them bumming about when Muhammad came on the scene.

 

[Hendryk]

Only Roman Catholics believe this and there is still some debate as to whether or not the Church of Rome is Christian. Just ask Ian paisley.

Are you actually using Ian Paisley as a reference on religious matters?

Well then, by that standard, there is still some debate as to whether the followers of Luther's heretical teachings are Christians