Modified WW2 aircraft

[EAF602Whizz]

This is my first post on these forums so hello everyone. Thought I'd share one of my favourite daydream topics to while away the long hours at work. So here is the what if modified aircraft thread, which I hope attracts a little discussion.

I'll start with the lovely little French fighter the Dewoitine 520. What if vichy had decided to defend it's own airspace against allied air attacks and asked for German help in the form of Daimler Benz engines for it's fleet of D.520s? Would this have made a truly classic interceptor of the period? As good as the similarly engined German and Italian fighters?
Given that the D.520 was underpowered and yet still a very handy fighter, I wonder what it might have achieved if given the power that it required. Under a puppet govt. the DB600 series would perhaps have fitted the bill. It transformed the MC200 into the classic MC202 and later the exceptional MC205 Veltro. Same goes for the R.2000 to R.2005 conversion.Conversely, if France could have remained free to carry on fighting with the allies I wonder what engine they might have chosen to bring the Dewoitine up to its full potential.
One other for now; since the Lancaster was pretty much a Manchester with 4 engines instead of 2, would a similar upgrade in power have worked for the Vickers Wellington?

Lots more to come and ideas of others very welcome.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Hi there, welcome to the board

It strikes me

What if vichy had decided to defend it's own airspace against allied air attacks

would be the most major change

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Thankyou, and you're perfectly correct Grey Wolf, that would be the most important part. Apart from that though I just love to yap about fighters.

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Vichy bandits.

So lets say that sometime in early 1944 a formation of B17s and their P47 escorts are suddenly bounced by several flights of yellow nosed fighters which after making a head on pass through the bombers roll over and dive away to safety using the standard LW tactic. The American crews are shocked when they realise that these aren't the usual Me109s but are in fact wearing French cockades on their wings. Vichy fighters! What would be the allied reaction to this? Would it make any difference to anything at all?

 

[LordVorKon]

Vichy fighters! What would be the allied reaction to this? Would it make any difference to anything at all?

Probably a few French cities would get added to the list that includes places like Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden. Possibly you'd end up with something akin to a French Civil War embedded into the greater overall conflict of WWII.

 

[Markus]

Asking for DB 600/601 engines would not have been necessary as France could have made similar ones. The last version of the HS 12Y generated almost 1,100hp, the new 12Z was in the 1,500hp range.

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Thanks Markus. That's the sort of information that I'd wondered about. Was a comparable French inline engine available. I'd like to have seen that version of the D520 fly and read about how it performed. I don't think that French cities would have been added to the list for annihilation by the allied air forces. Vichy airfields would have been added to the list of tactical targets though. Actually, I doubt if vichy interceptions would have made much difference to the politics of the time or to allied strategy either. Just an interesting little footnote in the air war if it had happened.Here's another one. The RAF want to fly proper daylight raids on Germany early in the war but they've been shown painfully that it doesn't work without a long range fighter escort. Any ideas what aircraft, if any, could have been developed to fit the bill? A British zerstorer? What about a single seat Mosquito? (That would almost be a DH Hornet wouldn't it). Obviously the spit and hurri are no good. Take out the rear turret on the defiant and use the space for fuel? A single seat Fulmar? Or a completely new design tender with time very much of the essence perhaps. Any thoughts?

 

[The Dean]

There was a variant built of the Dewoitine, the 521, with a Merlin engine. The Hispano-Suiza 12Y was a very light engine and the extra weight of the RR engine upset the balance of the airframe. The DB 601 would have had the same effect. The Bloch MB series had a better chance of being upgraded. The MB 157 was an outstanding machine and with either a German BMW engine or an Allied radial in the 1,500-2,000hp range would have been the equal of any machine in the air.

 

[The Kiat]

Any thoughts on a swept-wing, piston engine aircraft.
Or the fabled circular-winged aircraft?

 

[EAF602Whizz]

I didn't know that they'd actually tested a Merlin engined D.520. Interesting, and as you say a DB would have had the same effect on weight and balance. The HS 12z mentioned by Markus sounds good though.What about the RAF long range escort fighter and the 4 engined Wellington? And here's one more; what about a carrier based version of the little 'panic' fighter that had been designed and flown by Miles in 1940 and would it have fared better than the Brewster Buffalo in Malaya?

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Are you talking about the American research aircraft the 'flying pancake'? I don't think it came to much. There were some swept wing piston engined research types, I can't remember off the top of my head what they were called. The Americans built the (was it XP59?) with an Allison engine but it was dropped after a while. Only really successful swept wing aircraft with props that I can think of is the Soviet Unions Tupolev 95 bomber.

 

[The Kiat]

The flapjack? I think they called it the XF-5. It was an engineering success, but by the time they were ready to built, the war was almost over and jet engines started replaces prop-jobs.

Are you talking about the American research aircraft the 'flying pancake'? I don't think it came to much. There were some swept wing piston engined research types, I can't remember off the top of my head what they were called. The Americans built the (was it XP59?) with an Allison engine but it was dropped after a while. Only really successful swept wing aircraft with props that I can think of is the Soviet Unions Tupolev 95 bomber.

 

[EAF602Whizz]

That's it, the flying flapjack.

 

[Markus]

The actual De520 with its 930hp engine was as good as the Me109 E-3 but why would Vichy need to defend its towns from the RAF in the first place? The area was not on the RAF´s target list or did I miss something?

With regard to carrier fighters, just use Sea Hurricanes. They are already in production in the UK and their performance is good enough. Or buy some Wildcats if you need the extra range.

As far as Brewster Buffalo in Malaya is concerned, the plane had some technical shortcomings but her failure in Malaya was the result of organisational and training deficiencies.

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Good points Markus, but I was thinking of allied attacks on targets such as factories and railway yards in France as being the Vichy incitement to mount their own air defence. A lot of French civilians were being killed or injured by the RAF and USAAF without their towns being carpeted. It's plausible that, pre overlord, the vichy air force might start it's own response if the authorities allowed it. This would have been used as propaganda and perhaps it might have embarrassed the allies.I'd thought of the Martlett as a potential RAF fighter with longer range in the early part of the war. It might have been a worthwhile addition, stripped of it's carrier equipment and could have escorted RAF bombers further than the Spitfires could. Might have worked. They even gave a good account of themselves against LW fighters during the operation Tungsten attacks in 1944, so they ought to have done okay in '41 too.Mightn't RAF warhawks have been better in Malaya than the Brewsters?

 

[Markus]

Good points Markus, but I was thinking of allied attacks on targets such as factories and railway yards in France as being the Vichy incitement to mount their own air defence. A lot of French civilians were being killed or injured by the RAF and USAAF without their towns being carpeted. It's plausible that, pre overlord, the vichy air force might start it's own response if the authorities allowed it.

Vichy France ceased to exist in late 1942 and before that the UK had its hands more than full fighting Germany and Italy. The UK would gain nothing by increasing the number of its enemies.

And what french targets were attacked by RAF and USAAF? And when?

I'd thought of the Martlett as a potential RAF fighter with longer range in the early part of the war. It might have been a worthwhile addition, stripped of it's carrier equipment and could have escorted RAF bombers further than the Spitfires could.

There is a misunderstanding. I meant using Wildcats as carrier fighters because of the Sea Hurricane´s shorter range.

Might have worked. They even gave a good account of themselves against LW fighters during the operation Tungsten attacks in 1944, so they ought to have done okay in '41 too.

Sure about Wildcats? I think they used Hellcats.

Mightn't RAF warhawks have been better in Malaya than the Brewsters?

Not much, pilot training, early warning, airfield infrastructure and so on were in such a bad state that P-40s or Hurricanes would not have saved the RAF. Check part 1 of my alternate timeline for the details(link below).

 

[The Kiat]

Go with vamping up production of Bearcats and Sky Raiders.

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Yes Markus, I already read it some of it and enjoyed it a week or two ago whilst still lurking on the forums. It's very enjoyable and I'll go back and read the rest of it soon.I'd forgotten about Vichy being occupied after Torch. As I remember now the remains of the French air force were shared out among the axis after that with D520s ending up with the LW. However the targets in France (and all the occupied countries) were factories, power stations, bridges, docks and transport nodes that were useful to the axis. These were attacked heavily by the RAF and later the Americans from the word go. The resistance might try to warn discreetly of the attacks to protect French civilians but still there was considerable civilian loss of life. The targets were necessary to undermine the German war effort, particularly regarding railway yards etc. In the run up to D-Day these were systematically hammered for weeks to render the transport network useless.In '44 the FAA used wildcats, hellcats and corsairs in its attacks on Norway. Wildcats definitely bagged some Me109s during these raids.Agreed about Malaya. It truly was a tragic shambles and would require more than just a different fighter type.

 

[EAF602Whizz]

Why can't I get paragraphs to work? It's annoying.Hmm.

 

[G.Fieendish]

Thanks Markus. That's the sort of information that I'd wondered about. Was a comparable French inline engine available. I'd like to have seen that version of the D520 fly and read about how it performed. I don't think that French cities would have been added to the list for annihilation by the allied air forces. Vichy airfields would have been added to the list of tactical targets though. Actually, I doubt if vichy interceptions would have made much difference to the politics of the time or to allied strategy either. Just an interesting little footnote in the air war if it had happened.Here's another one. The RAF want to fly proper daylight raids on Germany early in the war but they've been shown painfully that it doesn't work without a long range fighter escort. Any ideas what aircraft, if any, could have been developed to fit the bill? A British zerstorer? What about a single seat Mosquito? (That would almost be a DH Hornet wouldn't it). Obviously the spit and hurri are no good. Take out the rear turret on the defiant and use the space for fuel? A single seat Fulmar? Or a completely new design tender with time very much of the essence perhaps. Any thoughts?

Er, Westland Whirlwinds with Merlins replacing the Vultures...