Modified Congress Idea for TL?

[Jimbrock]

Hey,(woot 1st thread!)

I recently had an idea for a TL that I'm planning to do that involves a modified Congress of Vienna. The PoD is that the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia sent a very intelligent delegation to the Congress which was respected and listened to, especially if they brought good deals to the table.

EDIT: I am probably soon going to post a 'Part 1' and see if people like it. I have decided to call the TL 'One stroke of a pen' after a quote by Giuseppe Mazzini, that is, if I make it...

Here's a little preview I wrote that pretty explains the Congress. I would have loved Castlereagh sitting on a park bench but I doubt world leaders would sit around on Austrian park benches thinking about how to re-draw the map of Europe.

Vienna, 1814

Castlereagh was thinking deeply as he sat in his chair in Vienna, Austria. He was the head of the British delegation to the Congress of Vienna, called to settle the Napoleonic Wars. In fact, he had just overcome a large problem, later called the Polish-Saxon Crisis, when Prussia and Russia proposed a deal giving most of Poland to Russia and all of Saxony to Prussia in return. Austria, Britain, and France called a bluff and threatened war if the deal was not cancelled.

That was when the delegation which Piedmont-Sardinia had insisted on sending announced their own proposal. They had been sent to ensure that the newly stoked Italian Nationalism was taken into consideration during the negotiations. They were failing miserably, and so saw an opportunity in the Crisis and suggested a solution based on partition.

Poland would be partitioned, with most going to Russia, the area west of Posen (including it, but only just) going to Prussia, Austria basically keeping its previous share, and Krakow becoming a ‘Free City’ under Austrian ‘protection’. Saxony would too be partitioned, with most going to Prussia, some bordering areas to Austria, and the southern areas to Bavaria.

Of course, the Piedmontese used this in order to win over Prussia, Austria, and Russia to their own plan for Italy, cleaning up the small states that littered central Italy. Lucca would go to Tuscany, Modena split between Tuscany and Parma, and some west areas of Parma would go to Piedmont itself. They had also convinced Austria to cede Italian South Trentino (not Tyrol) to their puppet Lombardia-Venezia.

To win Britain over, they had mentioned Malta, a small island in the central Mediterranean with good strategic location and excellent natural ports, bringing it to the attention of the Congress. Britain had intended to keep the island after assisting the locals chase out the French in 1800, even though they had agreed to allow the Knights of St. John back to the island. Embarrassed, and faced with a proposal to recognize British rule over the island, Castlereagh decided to agree to the ‘solution’.

He smiled. They had also wanted an ‘Italian League’, somewhat similar to the German Confederation, to be established in those states and the Austrian puppet Lombardia-Venezia, to ‘encourage Italian Unity’. They could have their League. Like a small state like Piedmont could ever unite Italy…


I was also planning to have Italy and Germany unified earlier because of the more powerful Piedmont and Prussia and have the Belgian Revolution a much bigger issue than it was OTL, as well as create a completely different system of alliances...

But first tell me whether the above congress is feasible. Comments would be nice too. Remember please that this IS my first thread (I only joined forum like 2 weeks ago) so don't get mad if I'm unrealistic.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[ddtim]

looks pretty good, but i'm just the crazy post-n00b who noone listens to.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

What about the former monarchs of the Italian principalities? The problem is (even in Germany), the Congress was hard-pressed to restore monarchs dethroned by Napoleon, and to restore the map to 1789 as much as possible. To simply dethrone these monarchs and not compensate them wouldn't happen.

Lucca was formed simply for the former Dukes of Parma. Prior to the Napoleonic wars, it didn't exist. After Napoleon returned from Elba, it was decided that the Tuscan Grand Dukes would inherit Lucca and the Bourbons of Parma would take over Parma. Central Italy was basically under Austrian domination from Milan, as the monarchs of Modena and Tuscany were Habsburgs; the Austrians probably wouldn't accept this deal because it'd undermind their power over Italy. Remember what Metternich said in 1815: "Italy is merely a geographic expression." The Congress didn't care about nationalism; it had caused too many problems, and they wanted to whipe it away. Hence why the Congress system was so flawed and broke up in the 1840s and 1850s.

 

[Jimbrock]

What about the former monarchs of the Italian principalities? The problem is (even in Germany), the Congress was hard-pressed to restore monarchs dethroned by Napoleon, and to restore the map to 1789 as much as possible. To simply dethrone these monarchs and not compensate them wouldn't happen.

Lucca was formed simply for the former Dukes of Parma. Prior to the Napoleonic wars, it didn't exist. After Napoleon returned from Elba, it was decided that the Tuscan Grand Dukes would inherit Lucca and the Bourbons of Parma would take over Parma. Central Italy was basically under Austrian domination from Milan, as the monarchs of Modena and Tuscany were Habsburgs; the Austrians probably wouldn't accept this deal because it'd undermind their power over Italy. Remember what Metternich said in 1815: "Italy is merely a geographic expression." The Congress didn't care about nationalism; it had caused too many problems, and they wanted to whipe it away. Hence why the Congress system was so flawed and broke up in the 1840s and 1850s.

I know about the Austrian domination, which is why I cancelled out the central states. I guessed that since Austrian Influenced tuscany was taking about half or more of the small states it would work. Do you think the problem is small enough to butterfly away? Any suggestions? I guess I could always have Piedmont take Lucca in the end but I prefer this sort of limited 'recognition' of Italian Nationalism.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Well, the problem is the Congress was essentially trying to draw the map back to 1789; they wanted to undo everything Napoleon had done, and tried to restore everything as best as possible. Hence why everything was very minimalist, except perhaps in Germany, where the dissolution of the HRE remained as did the meditisation of several smaller princely states.

Savoy is essentially a minor nation, a buffer between Austrian Italy and France. I'm unsure if they even had a delegation at Vienna that was in on the treaty dealings; Wikipedia says no, as the map of Europe was essentially redrawn by the Great Powers without care of anyone else. You need to find a way to properly compensate those losing their thrones in Italy to make this work, and make the Austrians actually except this deal. They have the strongest force in Italy at this time so basically hold the remainder by bayonets. Parma was established for Marie-Louise as Napoleon's consort. Supposed to be hereditary at first, but that was renegaded upon Napoleon's return from Elba, hence why the Bourbons of Parma got Lucca. Modena was ruled by the Habsburg-Estes, descendents of the Archduke Ferdinand (?) who had married Maria Beatrice d'Este, the heiress of Modena in the 1770s, and Tuscany ruled by the second son of Emperor Leopold II, if I'm correct.

If Modena is partitioned, perhaps the Estes are compensated with Breisgau, as the last Duke was compensated in 1803 (?). It's not entirely important. Marie-Louise doesn't need her own appanage in Italy, so if she doesn't receive Parma, the Bourbons of Parma can simply be restored. Lucca should either return to Tuscany, or maybe be given to the Bourbons. It's not close enough to Savoy to really be feasible. So you would have Modena partitioned, an enlarged Parma, and then Savoy, making the three statelets of Central Italy a little bit more stronger.

Not exactly what you want but I can't think of anything else at the moment.

 

[Jimbrock]

If Modena is partitioned, perhaps the Estes are compensated with Breisgau, as the last Duke was compensated in 1803 (?). It's not entirely important. Marie-Louise doesn't need her own appanage in Italy, so if she doesn't receive Parma, the Bourbons of Parma can simply be restored. Lucca should either return to Tuscany, or maybe be given to the Bourbons. It's not close enough to Savoy to really be feasible. So you would have Modena partitioned, an enlarged Parma, and then Savoy, making the three statelets of Central Italy a little bit more stronger.

Not exactly what you want but I can't think of anything else at the moment.

Hey, I like that idea.
I was also thinking of a sort of German Confederation for Italy, the Italian Alliance or something. I was thinking Piedmont, Monaco, Lombardy-Venetia, Parma(now), Tuscany, and Papal States and Two Sicilies if they want to join. It could be a way of Austria keeping some control over Italian Nationalism/Unification, and later could be turned against it.
I was also pondering all the secret movements like Carbonari and Young Italy etc. to join together under Piedmontese secret control. I know they had different aims (federation, monarchy, republic etc) but they could sort those out later.

Jim

 

[Jimbrock]

I ammended the OP with the suggestions from the thread, and wrote a little preview, about Castlereagh thinking about the proposal. I guess I could be accused of bumping my own thread, but I need some feedback before actually starting the TL, or abandoning it completely .

Jim

 

[Jimbrock]

Dammit, I feel guilty bumping again, but I'm not confident to make this it's own thread. Please comment. PLEASE!
I wrote a part to follow the preview. Let me know if I should continue this or abandon it...

Part 1:

The Piedmontese delegation returned to their country thinking that the great reforms put into place by Napoleon, combined with their efforts to promote a unified Italy, would make Piedmont-Sardinia a much better place. They couldn’t be more wrong.

In 1816, when it was safe for the despotic pre-war monarchs to start trickling back into their countries, Victor Emmanuel I, who had returned to Piedmont only since 1814, felt safe enough to cancel all the reforms Napoleon had made, building roadways over parks and even bringing back the Aristocratic exemption from taxes in a fit of reactionary spite.

The liberals and intellectuals, together with the middle class and generally, the common people, were shocked at this turn of events. One particularly vocal opponent was the young noble Charles Albert, who had been educated by liberal intellectuals in Geneva in the time of Napoleon. Charles became a rallying point for rebels and soon was planning a rebellion.

It started out in September 1817 when a revolt in Savoy got a little out of hand. Due to the support of nearly all the population, the revolt soon spread to all Savoy. Before the loyal Piedmontese armies could get there, all Savoy had been captured and the rebels were moving down to Nice. October saw the Alps captured, and by the end of the year most of Liguria, including Genoa, was controlled by the rebels.

Sardinia was effectively cut off with the capture of Genoa and over the next year was captured by Sardinian rebels. The Piedmontese government soon asked Austria for help against the rebels but by that time they had already taken most of east Piedmont.
The government forces had mostly switched over to the rebels and the remaining soldiers retreated to fortify Torino and the area around it.

As Charles Albert’s forces surrounded the area controlled by Victor Emmanuel, the old king, decided to pack up and abdicate. His younger brother Charles Felix took the throne and immediately began negotiating a peace deal. Riots plagued the city, and so the new ‘king’ managed to negotiate a truce in October with Charles Albert. Symbolically, a treaty was signed on the 31st December 1818. After a transition and restructuring period of one year (basically Felix was just holding on to half-power for a year) Charles Albert would become the King of a new Piedmont. A new Piedmont that could finally embrace a better future…

And the flag for the 'New Piedmont'. Made by yours truly on the flag thread. I should post it on Part 2 but meh .

Jim

 

[ImperialVienna]

I'm sorry, but the Austrian concessions you have are entirely ASB. Metternich and Franz I would never agree to cede away part of Tyrol (which had been core Austrian territory for 300 years) even to a nation that was technically their puppet (I'm confused as to when Franz I lost Milan and Venezia), especially if they didn't get anything from it. The Austrians aren't stupid, it was Metternich after all who dominated continental politics for the next 30 years, he'd smell a rat like this a mile away.

 

[Jimbrock]

I'm sorry, but the Austrian concessions you have are entirely ASB. Metternich and Franz I would never agree to cede away part of Tyrol (which had been core Austrian territory for 300 years) even to a nation that was technically their puppet (I'm confused as to when Franz I lost Milan and Venezia), especially if they didn't get anything from it. The Austrians aren't stupid, it was Metternich after all who dominated continental politics for the next 30 years, he'd smell a rat like this a mile away.

Not to say 'I told you so' but i wrote Trentino (not Tyrol) because I knew that someone would find fault to that. Good that it was a friendly poster instead of some Gerwanker. Tyrol (even the south) is still completely within Austria.

Thanks for posting (finally! )
Jim

 

[ImperialVienna]

Erm no your didn't tell me so, because Trentino is part of Tyrol(the Austrians called it Welschtirol). The Princely County of Tyrol was a single political unit until the end of WWI, that included Trentino. Trentino was Tyrolian. The two only became separable after the annexation of Southern Tyrol by Italy when it became clear that the ethnic German population did not share the enthusiasm of the Italians around Trentino.

PS: I'm no Germanwanker, just your friendly neighborhood Habsburgwanker.

 

[Jimbrock]

Erm no your didn't tell me so, because Trentino is part of Tyrol(the Austrians called it Welschtirol). The Princely County of Tyrol was a single political unit until the end of WWI, that included Trentino. Trentino was Tyrolian. The two only became separable after the annexation of Southern Tyrol by Italy when it became clear that the ethnic German population did not share the enthusiasm of the Italians around Trentino.

PS: I'm no Germanwanker, just your friendly neighborhood Habsburgwanker.

Oo, didn't know that. D'you think that it would be more acceptable if Italy annexed it in the aftermath of a wanked Prusso-Austro (with Italy on the side) war? I just have to have them annex it at one point thats for sure.

What do you think about the rest? Should I continue?

PS: I know, I follow both of your AH TLs and thats why I said 'a friendly poster' .

Jim

 

[ImperialVienna]

Oo, didn't know that. D'you think that it would be more acceptable if Italy annexed it in the aftermath of a wanked Prusso-Austro (with Italy on the side) war? I just have to have them annex it at one point thats for sure.

What do you think about the rest? Should I continue?

PS: I know, I follow both of your AH TLs and thats why I said 'a friendly poster' .

Jim

By a wanked Prusso-Austro War, do you mean like an Austro-Prussian War counterpart or would this be a totally different beast? I ask because the politics of the Austro-Prussian War often seem to get lost and confused and people are like, "Op, Austria lost all this land to Italy randomly."

I like the flag, non-tricolor standards make me smile.

 

[Jimbrock]

By a wanked Prusso-Austro War, do you mean like an Austro-Prussian War counterpart or would this be a totally different beast? I ask because the politics of the Austro-Prussian War often seem to get lost and confused and people are like, "Op, Austria lost all this land to Italy randomly."

Well, it will be the war that whacks Austria out of the Unification race and will result in closer association ( but not complete union) of germany minus austria under prussia. But techinacally after the first Italo-Austrian war I have no concrete plans for this TL.

Thanks for the comments on the flag, though strictly speaking it IS a tricoulour, just not the hackney'd italian one .

Jim

 

[ImperialVienna]

As long as it's not the Austro-Prussian War counterpart I can see the annexation for Italian speaking areas from Austria.

And by tri-color, I meant of the God awful French revolution kind.

 

[Herr Frage]

And by tri-color, I meant of the God awful French revolution kind.

I agree of course, why is it that revolutionaries so often chose ugly flags to represent themselves? A liitle elegance and beauty does the world some good. Still not as bad as many Communist flags, though I suppose crude and overbearing fits the nature of those states.

I think your core is sound, but it is hard to diverge realitically when you are trying to make something happen.

Herr Longvin said in his essay that he actually fgoes against his plans fairly regularly. After all history is unpredictable, stuff happened that was shocking then, and remains so in retrospect. Rather than trying to get somewhere, perhaps you should focus on the PoD and see where the idea takes you.

Mind you I do not speak from AH experience, I only have worked on ASBs for any length of time.

 

[Jimbrock]

I agree of course, why is it that revolutionaries so often chose ugly flags to represent themselves? A liitle elegance and beauty does the world some good. Still not as bad as many Communist flags, though I suppose crude and overbearing fits the nature of those states.

I think your core is sound, but it is hard to diverge realitically when you are trying to make something happen.

Herr Longvin said in his essay that he actually fgoes against his plans fairly regularly. After all history is unpredictable, stuff happened that was shocking then, and remains so in retrospect. Rather than trying to get somewhere, perhaps you should focus on the PoD and see where the idea takes you.

Mind you I do not speak from AH experience, I only have worked on ASBs for any length of time.

Ah, I remember Longvins essay about that. Maybe you're right, I should let it go wild. But should I continue it into it's own thread, that is the question.

Sorry guys, as much as you like my Piedmont flag, after unification the tricoulour defaced with savoy cross is gonna have to be the flag because the majority of non-Piedmont Italians do not want to be reminded of Piedmontese domination of Italy *cough* The South *cough*.

Jim

EDIT:

As long as it's not the Austro-Prussian War counterpart I can see the annexation for Italian speaking areas from Austria.

I thought about it a bit and am planning to turn it into a huge war where after victory Prussia 'backstabs' (in the eyes of Cavour and the propaganda machine) and the second part of the war Italy goes up against Austria with Prussian tacit support.

Jim

 

[Herr Frage]

I think as new thread would be best when you want to try the TL again, clean slate. However, until you are ready continue using this one.

 

[Jimbrock]

I think as new thread would be best when you want to try the TL again, clean slate. However, until you are ready continue using this one.

Hmm, I thought this could be a preview thread and if I saw people liked it I could make a thread for it on it's own. But problem is, people DIDN'T like it. I got like only four different people commenting, and no real compliments. I don't know whether to continue. Oh well. I'll work on part 2 and if NOONE likes it I'll wrap up.

Jim

PS: I made a flag for the Italian league. The flag thread has yet to comment but I thought I'd post it. The cross is for piedmont, horrizontal band is double for Austria, and tricolour is there for everyone.