Modernized Celtic religion

How would one go about creating a modernized version of Celtic Religion?

I'm working on a (rather far-fetched) timeline where Celtic (rather than Romance or Germanic) civilization dominates Western Europe, and where Christianity and other Abrahamic religions never gained a strong foothold in Europe.

One of the issues I'm having is developing a gradually modernized and codified version of Ancient Celtic religion, similar to how Hinduism is a modernization of ancient Vedic religion.

I'm largely using this: http://draeconin.com/database/celtreli.htm as my source for Ancient Celtic beliefs, but any other sources are welcome.

What I'm NOT looking for is neo-paganism, which appeared as a reaction to a millennium and a half of Christianity, rather than a natural evolution.
 
You'll need to ask yourself first what moderity in this world looks like. It is liable to be completely different from ours. Mainstream religions always affirm the structure of existing society and base their rites and practices on its customs, so a modern Celtic religion would need to be built on the basis of the society it serves.

From the outside, it can look very interesting and colourful. You could still have animal and/or object sacrifice, perhaps even human sacrifice, though that is improbable if your world is scientific at all. You'll certainly have a class of ritual specialists. Perhaps they study at druid seminaries? Their traditional methods of teaching will certainly pout them at a disadvantage compared to secular intellectuals - id there are any.
 
Tbh this is a super hard task to achieve.

We know shockingly little about the ancient celtic religions (and that is an important point)... that sight is rather limited though in overall outcome.

What we can guess at theologically (in regards to the druids) is that...

A) They were identifiably comparable to the Pythagoreans. Considering usual contemporary comparisons of explanation tend to be superficial and focus on key points, it is reasonable to presume that they proposed a system of rebirth and were invested in mathematics.

B) Trees were significant to them

C) They had enough of a popular appeal that the Romans were afraid of them and hence committed genocide on Anglesey.

But that is pretty much it.

In regards to the common ancient celtic religions, we can draw a little bit of inspiration from folklore and the works of Irish Christian monks though... the book of invasions holds quite a few common threads with the greater "celtosphere". Obviously from this we know them to be polytheists, that the gods were "defeatable" by humans and that there was a very complex idea of determinism.

Now, whilst I don't think that there ever realistically was a "celtic civilisation" which is identifiable beyond some shared gods (it is important to note that there is little record of themselves recognising a shared identity, as much overlap with Mediterranean/Scando-Baltic deities as they had with each other and much of what we consider "celtic" these days certainly do not share the original Celtoi language roots) there are potential historical trends which are interesting.

I once spoke to a neo-pagan (I know you are not looking for them) who believed he was practicing how he imagined the religion could have developed rather than the historical tradition (see Brahmanism to the modern Hindu faith). Essentially he is a proponent of the "Indo-Aryan" faith idea where the same religion was spread to Europe and India but filtered out through the respective ideas (for instance, Brahmanism existing out of a Indo-Aryan filtering of Jain like beliefs in Mohenjo Daro).

The long and short of it was a cyclical worldview of reincarnation from which our only liberation is detachment from fear, but as a stricter philosophical polytheism as opposed to the transcendent polytheism of the later Bhakti inspired Hinduism.

This of course presumes a hell of a lot (and as said, I don't even buy into the idea of a "celtic" civilisation existing) but isn't unimaginable over time.
 
A Celtic civilization which perceives itself as such would, to follow CountPeter here, differ greatly from historical Celts to begin with. To achieve such a sense of unity among Celts as existed, say, for "Hellenic religion" (which was still diverse enough), you`d either need much more contact between the different groups (Greeks travelled easier across the sea than Celts did from Iberia over Gaul, Vindelicia and Noricum to Galatia), which is geographically difficult, or you`d need a unifying empire (which would replace the social fabric we construct as typically Celtic with a different one already in antiquity). An existential external threat certainly isn`t enough, because enough of that existed IOTL.

If you don`t have that, then you`ll have different Celtic groups fending for themselves and adapting in different ways to the cultural challenges presented to them. Which need not be OTL, but then perhaps you could specify which Celtic group you`d like to focus on.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
I think you'd have better luck having Celtic Christianity survive long term and never enter communion with Rome, and to be honest, this was very much a possibility during the post Roman period.

The appeal of Christianity in Britain in its early period was always its monasteries, which did a lot of communal good for both the rulers and common people. If Latin Christianity should for whatever reason grow hostile towards monks, I think you will see an independent, Celtic form of Christianity flourish in Britain.

As for old fashioned, Celtic Paganism? With druids and all of that? You are going to need some massive PODs for this to occur, and a good place to start would be never letting Rome get off of its feet, probably with Brennus's sack of Rome being much more severe and allowing other Italic cities or Greek colonies to take Rome long term.
 
I think you'd have better luck having Celtic Christianity survive long term and never enter communion with Rome, and to be honest, this was very much a possibility during the post Roman period.

Err... Celtic Christianity was ALWAYS in communion with Rome. Just not part of its hierarchy and power structure.
 
Thanks for all the input, folks.

You'll need to ask yourself first what moderity in this world looks like. It is liable to be completely different from ours. Mainstream religions always affirm the structure of existing society and base their rites and practices on its customs, so a modern Celtic religion would need to be built on the basis of the society it serves.

Well, modernity does look a lot different. For one, monotheism is MUCH weaker (to the point where Judaism, Christianity, and ALT!Islam are all still considered Jewish sects). Rome still left an imprint on the world, but it was a much more transitory one (one of the main PODS is the empire falling apart under Caligula)

Industrialism and colonialism still ended up happening, but not taking off quite as well, partly because of a !Druidism's emphasis on nature, so, for example, cars are considered a mild luxury even in the richer parts of the world.

From the outside, it can look very interesting and colourful. You could still have animal and/or object sacrifice, perhaps even human sacrifice, though that is improbable if your world is scientific at all. You'll certainly have a class of ritual specialists. Perhaps they study at druid seminaries? Their traditional methods of teaching will certainly pout them at a disadvantage compared to secular intellectuals - id there are any.

I like the idea of the Druids becoming sort of a Brahman analogue, who control education, I think I'll used that.

Tbh this is a super hard task to achieve.

We know shockingly little about the ancient celtic religions (and that is an important point)... that sight is rather limited though in overall outcome.

What we can guess at theologically (in regards to the druids) is that...

A) They were identifiably comparable to the Pythagoreans. Considering usual contemporary comparisons of explanation tend to be superficial and focus on key points, it is reasonable to presume that they proposed a system of rebirth and were invested in mathematics.

B) Trees were significant to them

C) They had enough of a popular appeal that the Romans were afraid of them and hence committed genocide on Anglesey.

But that is pretty much it.

In regards to the common ancient celtic religions, we can draw a little bit of inspiration from folklore and the works of Irish Christian monks though... the book of invasions holds quite a few common threads with the greater "celtosphere". Obviously from this we know them to be polytheists, that the gods were "defeatable" by humans and that there was a very complex idea of determinism.

Now, whilst I don't think that there ever realistically was a "celtic civilisation" which is identifiable beyond some shared gods (it is important to note that there is little record of themselves recognising a shared identity, as much overlap with Mediterranean/Scando-Baltic deities as they had with each other and much of what we consider "celtic" these days certainly do not share the original Celtoi language roots) there are potential historical trends which are interesting.

I once spoke to a neo-pagan (I know you are not looking for them) who believed he was practicing how he imagined the religion could have developed rather than the historical tradition (see Brahmanism to the modern Hindu faith). Essentially he is a proponent of the "Indo-Aryan" faith idea where the same religion was spread to Europe and India but filtered out through the respective ideas (for instance, Brahmanism existing out of a Indo-Aryan filtering of Jain like beliefs in Mohenjo Daro).

The long and short of it was a cyclical worldview of reincarnation from which our only liberation is detachment from fear, but as a stricter philosophical polytheism as opposed to the transcendent polytheism of the later Bhakti inspired Hinduism.

This of course presumes a hell of a lot (and as said, I don't even buy into the idea of a "celtic" civilisation existing) but isn't unimaginable over time.

You gave me a ton of useful info, thanks. It's not so much a unitary "Celtic Civilization", I think a better comparison would be "Germanic Civilization". Lots of shared values and beliefs, but also lots of individual nations with their own distinct identities.

A Celtic civilization which perceives itself as such would, to follow CountPeter here, differ greatly from historical Celts to begin with. To achieve such a sense of unity among Celts as existed, say, for "Hellenic religion" (which was still diverse enough), you`d either need much more contact between the different groups (Greeks travelled easier across the sea than Celts did from Iberia over Gaul, Vindelicia and Noricum to Galatia), which is geographically difficult, or you`d need a unifying empire (which would replace the social fabric we construct as typically Celtic with a different one already in antiquity). An existential external threat certainly isn`t enough, because enough of that existed IOTL.

If you don`t have that, then you`ll have different Celtic groups fending for themselves and adapting in different ways to the cultural challenges presented to them. Which need not be OTL, but then perhaps you could specify which Celtic group you`d like to focus on.

The "Celtic Identity" is developed after throwing off Rome, and realizing that some semblance of unity is needed to keep the same thing from happening again. I have a vague idea of a kind of "Genghis Khan" -esque figure who forcibly (and temporarily) unites most of the Celtic Gaulish World.

I'm focusing mostly on two nations which develop on the British Isles, a "Brythonic" nation (Welsh, Britons, and Cornish) and a "Geal" Nation.

As for old fashioned, Celtic Paganism? With druids and all of that? You are going to need some massive PODs for this to occur, and a good place to start would be never letting Rome get off of its feet, probably with Brennus's sack of Rome being much more severe and allowing other Italic cities or Greek colonies to take Rome long term.

"Old Fashioned" wouldn't be exactly what I was looking for, but a development of that. Chrisitanity remains stuck in the middle east and northeast africa, and never spreads meaningfully into what's left of the roman world.

My POD is a collapse of Rome under Caligula (or some other "bad emperor")
 
Ooo. I'm working on a collapsed Rome TL. Anyways modernized celticism has two real paths. One it begins to embrace a single central god if it's influenced heavily by Christianity or another monotheistic religion or B it just de radicalized. Ie, less restrictions on food, what to wear, human rights, etc. kind of like medieval Christianity compared to modern Christianity.
 
It may be too late for what you want, but if you add two hundred years to the lifetime of te Roman Empire, you get the Gallic Empire of Postumus and successors.
romanemp3C.gif.png


The Caeltic languages in the British Isles were never replaced by Latin, and the Gaulish language seems to have been strong at least until 400 CE.
Wiki: "Saint Jerome (writing in AD386/387) remarked in a commentary [...] that the Belgic Treveri spoke almost the same language as the Galatians, rather than Latin. This agrees with an earlier report in AD180 by Lucian."

If the Roman Empire is forced to retract to Italy, Africa and SE Europe (or even disintegrate further), a Gaulish-language nation might emerge between Rhine and the Pyrenees, and others in the British Isles.

It will be heavily influenced by Roman thought, but would be far from thorough christianized. Plus, having the Roman imposed civitates as local form of government might help with planning you TL.

civitates_named.gif
 
On the other hand,
you might go back before the Wars of Julian Agression :D, and kill off Ariovist in the battle of Magetobriga. Without a looming crisis in Gaul, CIC goes east from his province of Illyricum while trying to conquer the gold mines of the Dacians and vanishes from history.
Among them, Pompey and Crassus manage to bring Rome to its knees.

So in 63 BCE, the Suebians are routed, the Aedui defeat the Sequani and maintain their regional dominance. Their capital Bibracte controls the trade between and on Rhodanus-Sagonna (Rhone-Sâone) Liger (Loire) and Sequana (Seine). Their style of governance (a noble senate, probably led by druids, annually electing a vergobretus as superior magistrate) is refreshingly different from the stereotypical "barbarian kingdom".
When writing this TL, you can make use of two famous Aedui, the brothers Diviciacus the druid and Dumnorix the anti-Roman chieftain. Other contemporary Aedui of Caesar's time are Cavarillus, Convictolitavis, Cotus, Eporedorix, Liscus the Vergobret, Litaviccus, Surus, Valetiacus and Viridomarus. Quite a lot to work with, more than for any other Gallic tribe.

eduens.jpg
 
Thanks for all the input, folks.

Well, modernity does look a lot different. For one, monotheism is MUCH weaker (to the point where Judaism, Christianity, and ALT!Islam are all still considered Jewish sects). Rome still left an imprint on the world, but it was a much more transitory one (one of the main PODS is the empire falling apart under Caligula)

Industrialism and colonialism still ended up happening, but not taking off quite as well, partly because of a !Druidism's emphasis on nature, so, for example, cars are considered a mild luxury even in the richer parts of the world.

I like the idea of the Druids becoming sort of a Brahman analogue, who control education, I think I'll used that.

You gave me a ton of useful info, thanks. It's not so much a unitary "Celtic Civilization", I think a better comparison would be "Germanic Civilization". Lots of shared values and beliefs, but also lots of individual nations with their own distinct identities.

The "Celtic Identity" is developed after throwing off Rome, and realizing that some semblance of unity is needed to keep the same thing from happening again. I have a vague idea of a kind of "Genghis Khan" -esque figure who forcibly (and temporarily) unites most of the Celtic Gaulish World.

I'm focusing mostly on two nations which develop on the British Isles, a "Brythonic" nation (Welsh, Britons, and Cornish) and a "Geal" Nation.

'"Old Fashioned" wouldn't be exactly what I was looking for, but a development of that. Chrisitanity remains stuck in the middle east and northeast africa, and never spreads meaningfully into what's left of the roman world.

My POD is a collapse of Rome under Caligula (or some other "bad emperor")
That sounds definitely interesting. I'd follow such a timeline. The idea of druidic ecologism may be romantic rather than stringent, but it sounds intriguing, too. The Celtic Genghis Khan is a possibility.

westphalian's ideas are interesting, too.
in my own TL, a Gallo-Roman Empire features prominently, too. But so far it's not overly Celtic. In the late 3rd and 4th centuries, Romanization was quite far-reaching. The islands may be an exception, but they have little reason to secede from such an Empire as only it can provide the necessary protection against Picts, Scoti and Saxons. Thus, my Gallo-Romans continue Roman traditions, even if Celtic languages survive longer.
 
How would one go about creating a modernized version of Celtic Religion?

I'm working on a (rather far-fetched) timeline where Celtic (rather than Romance or Germanic) civilization dominates Western Europe, and where Christianity and other Abrahamic religions never gained a strong foothold in Europe.

One of the issues I'm having is developing a gradually modernized and codified version of Ancient Celtic religion, similar to how Hinduism is a modernization of ancient Vedic religion.

I'm largely using this: http://draeconin.com/database/celtreli.htm as my source for Ancient Celtic beliefs, but any other sources are welcome.

What I'm NOT looking for is neo-paganism, which appeared as a reaction to a millennium and a half of Christianity, rather than a natural evolution.

Maybe an institutionalized Druidism Pantheism with Gods representing aspects of anture . universities, lectures, exames and written scripture and debates are developed. The Druidsphere reaching from Iberian Penisula to Anatolia, from Northern Italy to Scotland.
 
It may be too late for what you want, but if you add two hundred years to the lifetime of te Roman Empire, you get the Gallic Empire of Postumus and successors.

The Caeltic languages in the British Isles were never replaced by Latin, and the Gaulish language seems to have been strong at least until 400 CE.
Wiki: "Saint Jerome (writing in AD386/387) remarked in a commentary [...] that the Belgic Treveri spoke almost the same language as the Galatians, rather than Latin. This agrees with an earlier report in AD180 by Lucian."

If the Roman Empire is forced to retract to Italy, Africa and SE Europe (or even disintegrate further), a Gaulish-language nation might emerge between Rhine and the Pyrenees, and others in the British Isles.

It will be heavily influenced by Roman thought, but would be far from thorough christianized. Plus, having the Roman imposed civitates as local form of government might help with planning you TL.

civitates_named.gif


This isn't a bad idea at all, I may certainly use it, maybe having one of the "Gallic" Emperors support Celtic Culture and officially adopt it as a means of gaining legitimacy against a resurgent Rome. Victorinus manages to keep it in his pants and has a longer and more stable reign.

On the other hand,
you might go back before the Wars of Julian Agression :D, and kill off Ariovist in the battle of Magetobriga. Without a looming crisis in Gaul, CIC goes east from his province of Illyricum while trying to conquer the gold mines of the Dacians and vanishes from history.
Among them, Pompey and Crassus manage to bring Rome to its knees.

So in 63 BCE, the Suebians are routed, the Aedui defeat the Sequani and maintain their regional dominance. Their capital Bibracte controls the trade between and on Rhodanus-Sagonna (Rhone-Sâone) Liger (Loire) and Sequana (Seine). Their style of governance (a noble senate, probably led by druids, annually electing a vergobretus as superior magistrate) is refreshingly different from the stereotypical "barbarian kingdom".
When writing this TL, you can make use of two famous Aedui, the brothers Diviciacus the druid and Dumnorix the anti-Roman chieftain. Other contemporary Aedui of Caesar's time are Cavarillus, Convictolitavis, Cotus, Eporedorix, Liscus the Vergobret, Litaviccus, Surus, Valetiacus and Viridomarus. Quite a lot to work with, more than for any other Gallic tribe.


I'd rather not go that far back, but I'll definitely consider it if the other doesn't work out. I'm trying not to totally butterfly away Christianity (it still makes slight appearances in my setting) as I'm trying to have Manicheaism become the principal religion of the near east, so we need to still have a Roman presence in the Levant.

That sounds definitely interesting. I'd follow such a timeline. The idea of druidic ecologism may be romantic rather than stringent, but it sounds intriguing, too. The Celtic Genghis Khan is a possibility.

westphalian's ideas are interesting, too.
in my own TL, a Gallo-Roman Empire features prominently, too. But so far it's not overly Celtic. In the late 3rd and 4th centuries, Romanization was quite far-reaching. The islands may be an exception, but they have little reason to secede from such an Empire as only it can provide the necessary protection against Picts, Scoti and Saxons. Thus, my Gallo-Romans continue Roman traditions, even if Celtic languages survive longer.

There will still be some Roman traditions present, but their origins will be largely downplayed by the ruling class. Also, like I said, the industrial revolution still does end up kicking off, just not quite as hard as before. I'm trying not to romanticize Druidism too much, and while they're more environmentally conscious, socialism (which sprang from christian ideals, ironically enough) also never really takes off, and the "nobility" remains more entrenched in society.

Maybe an institutionalized Druidism Pantheism with Gods representing aspects of anture . universities, lectures, exames and written scripture and debates are developed. The Druidsphere reaching from Iberian Penisula to Anatolia, from Northern Italy to Scotland.

I like some of that, but it's a little to far reaching and optimistic. I'm not trying to create a utopia here (or a dystopia, for that matter) just trying to plot how things could have gone differently. Thanks for the input though.
 
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