Modern Viking Empire

I recall John Cleese, in a short piece he did about Norway, referring to his Norse ancestors' "inseminating mission" in Britain :D
 
Go West, Not South

A major Norse empire for it to endure into the 21st century we would need first off to butterfly away the little ice age. Otherwise you loose Greenland and Iceland becomes a cut off minor colony or perhaps independent.
.

For the record, learning from what happened later in OTL, a decentralized western grouping would have been far preferrable. Obviously with your POD so long ago matters could have been different, but the way to bet is centralized authority is poison.

For example with Iceland and Greenland is that first in 1262 Norway and then Denmark imposed more restrictive laws and then complete trading monopolies which starved them of profits and initiative, funneling the gravy to royal coffers while telling the people to tend sheep. All hell could break loose and these greedy folk would claim it is heavenly will, while in 1262 the claim was to do the polar opposite.


Case in point was Iceland, where 20% of the population _died_ of famine and to some degree of volcanic poisoning in the post 1783 Laki eruption, and it took nearly a year before the King and his exclusive King's monopoly decided to do anything about it, then spent the money on non famine areas, assumedly of politically connected people. Fish was _exported_ out of the island. You have state control like that and the empire is probably not going to last, and at a distant rule quadriple the chances. Rulers are greedy and are nearly always getting into very expensive petty social squable wars with relatives and colleagues.

Norwegian rule of Greenland did not bode well in the 14th/15th centuries extinction, either. It was a European disease back then, government monopolies, and very few ever gave it up willingly while at profit. A soveriegn gave up those trading rights after the poor population was bled dry, generations afterwards, if at all.


So maybe with some more free enterprise, butterflies are not needed. There was more to it, for example that trade items of Narwhale tusks became not so much in demand (supposed to be related to unicorns, therefore good for alchemy and medicines) or that little matters like the Black Death knocked on most towns' gates. Will you have a Black Death? Certainly plagues, but a strong economy deals with upsets like that. But the isolation could find an outlet with American colonies, sucessful American colonies, if in your TL.

All new Northern areas would be sidelines till that, as most money was otherwise in the perpetual draining military roles down south, fine in warm years with an over abundance of fresh meat young buck warrior in the population of the Viks (harbors) but not so great in down years.


The focus was then on economic freebooting, trade, and hiring out for mercenary pay. Viking trade never took off completely, based enough on muscle and force a bit like Vlad or Ghenghis did, which was an improvement for trade of violent anarchy but requiring contineous inputs and forces.

Your timeline might have to focus more on technology. Besides Clinker Ships (the overlapping boards which provided so much strength and which were used til the late middle ages as standard issue in northern areas), no other technologies come to mind. Any one want to enlighten us on more? Crossbows were not new, but a step towards providing an edge could help a lot towards a modern empire. The guerilla warfare by water will not cut it beyond 999. Otherwise it would be more like the typical conquest routes for the monarchy, something which may pay for some sometimes but is fleeting overall. Eventually some kind of improvement method must be developed, I guess, for a real empire or cohesive confederation to take hold.

If you do have Vikings go south, try the Azores or Madiera Islands, as no one on there (uninhabited til 14th-15th centuries) and capable of supporting as many people as Iceland, Faroes, and Greenland put together, plus only several hundred miles off the coast of Spain. The El Cid types in the Galacia region would be a natural putting off place, and have the islands go to a type of Sicily (Norman rule for many years, plus ruling class for more after that with Vespers, til hacked one last time by the locals in 1730's I recall). Play off both both sides of the Islamic/Christian groups. Empires tend to last when they have a power center, more isolated from other powers the better, which rules out anywhere in Southern Europe.
 
With a POD so far back, nearly anything can happen.

What does happen, though, is a far more Germanic English.

With more than just token influence from Norse & Swedish, I might add. In all truth, though, OTL's English was really more of a Celto-Frisian hybrid{with some embedded Latin influence thanks to the Roman occupation}at first........of course, that was before the Danish & French{Norman} invasions.
 
I've come back to this topic after a while, but in the meantime I've had two thoughts.

The first is that the Vikings were not "defeated" per se, but rather absorbed. For example, the French were never able to dislodge the Viking invaders once they set up shop, but gave them titles, married them, and, over many decades, converted them to Christianity. The famous Normandy beaches of D-Day got their name from the French for "Northern Men", because that was who ruled their in medieval times. It is possible that if the Vikings of your timeline had more cultural cohesion, or perhaps even had a proselytizing religion themselves, they could have resisted assimilation or even converted Christians to the worship of their gods.

The other is that there is a golden opportunity to produce a Viking Empire in North America. IOTL there was at least one Viking settlement in North America, and oral histories indicate there might have been another. The settlement, according to the oral histories and archeological digs, was abandoned after a series of attacks by local Native American tribes made it too costly and dangerous to maintain. Unlike the Europeans many centuries later, the Vikings never expanded past this one foothold. But if ITTL they did, there is great potential.
 
yeah, i heard about that absorption, too

shall we say that they maintain their cultural identity ITTL?

what we have as being almost definitive parts of the norse empire ITTL, btw, are OTL denmark, norway, england (possibly great britain), and iceland
 
The Vikings got their evil reputation because of their early disregard for churches.

Actually, I've read in a book on the Vikings that the Viking raids may have started out as religious attacks. The first few records of Viking raids speak of them heading directly for the churches or monasteries and destroying them, while ignoring the rest of the town. And not just any churches, the Vikings sailed right past easier targets to head to the holiest places in all of England and Ireland and destroy them.

Moreover, there is the timing. The Viking raids started just after the HREs invasion of the lands of the Viking's coreligionists in what is now Germany, which were explicitly intended to spread Christianity and which were full of terrible and infamous massacres. At Verden, Charlemange's men forcibly baptized 4500 hundred prisoners of war, and then executed them en mass.. Combining these two facts, it is believed that the Vikings wanted to strike back at Christianity in vengeance and that the British isles, with their disorganized administration (England was four different countries at the time, for example, none of them very strong) offered an easier target than the HRE.

And then you had the same thing as in the Congo or Columbia -- the attacks, which had started out as political, made money. After all, these holy churches had gold in them, in the form of relics and grave-goods. And then the Vikings started to think "hey, there's lots more gold in Europe other than what's in the churches -- lets take that gold too!". And so they became general raiders. And from there it was a short step to the highly profitable business of slavery.
 

Stephen

Banned
The viking age was really over by the time of Hardrada, so if you want to wank the vikings why not go back further and nerf King Alfred.
 
Read about the churches too. Churches in both England and Ireland heavily taxed the serfs and peasants of the region. They also were not attacked by local kings nor bandits therefor kings would often leave their gold and jewels in care of the churches and monasterys. The monks and clergy in these places were often unarmed. Easy pickings.
 
For the record, learning from what happened later in OTL, a decentralized western grouping would have been far preferrable. Obviously with your POD so long ago matters could have been different, but the way to bet is centralized authority is poison.

For example with Iceland and Greenland is that first in 1262 Norway and then Denmark imposed more restrictive laws and then complete trading monopolies which starved them of profits and initiative, funneling the gravy to royal coffers while telling the people to tend sheep. All hell could break loose and these greedy folk would claim it is heavenly will, while in 1262 the claim was to do the polar opposite.


Case in point was Iceland, where 20% of the population _died_ of famine and to some degree of volcanic poisoning in the post 1783 Laki eruption, and it took nearly a year before the King and his exclusive King's monopoly decided to do anything about it, then spent the money on non famine areas, assumedly of politically connected people. Fish was _exported_ out of the island. You have state control like that and the empire is probably not going to last, and at a distant rule quadriple the chances. Rulers are greedy and are nearly always getting into very expensive petty social squable wars with relatives and colleagues.

Norwegian rule of Greenland did not bode well in the 14th/15th centuries extinction, either. It was a European disease back then, government monopolies, and very few ever gave it up willingly while at profit. A soveriegn gave up those trading rights after the poor population was bled dry, generations afterwards, if at all.


So maybe with some more free enterprise, butterflies are not needed. There was more to it, for example that trade items of Narwhale tusks became not so much in demand (supposed to be related to unicorns, therefore good for alchemy and medicines) or that little matters like the Black Death knocked on most towns' gates. Will you have a Black Death? Certainly plagues, but a strong economy deals with upsets like that. But the isolation could find an outlet with American colonies, sucessful American colonies, if in your TL.

All new Northern areas would be sidelines till that, as most money was otherwise in the perpetual draining military roles down south, fine in warm years with an over abundance of fresh meat young buck warrior in the population of the Viks (harbors) but not so great in down years.


The focus was then on economic freebooting, trade, and hiring out for mercenary pay. Viking trade never took off completely, based enough on muscle and force a bit like Vlad or Ghenghis did, which was an improvement for trade of violent anarchy but requiring contineous inputs and forces.

Your timeline might have to focus more on technology. Besides Clinker Ships (the overlapping boards which provided so much strength and which were used til the late middle ages as standard issue in northern areas), no other technologies come to mind. Any one want to enlighten us on more? Crossbows were not new, but a step towards providing an edge could help a lot towards a modern empire. The guerilla warfare by water will not cut it beyond 999. Otherwise it would be more like the typical conquest routes for the monarchy, something which may pay for some sometimes but is fleeting overall. Eventually some kind of improvement method must be developed, I guess, for a real empire or cohesive confederation to take hold.

If you do have Vikings go south, try the Azores or Madiera Islands, as no one on there (uninhabited til 14th-15th centuries) and capable of supporting as many people as Iceland, Faroes, and Greenland put together, plus only several hundred miles off the coast of Spain. The El Cid types in the Galacia region would be a natural putting off place, and have the islands go to a type of Sicily (Norman rule for many years, plus ruling class for more after that with Vespers, til hacked one last time by the locals in 1730's I recall). Play off both both sides of the Islamic/Christian groups. Empires tend to last when they have a power center, more isolated from other powers the better, which rules out anywhere in Southern Europe.
Colonization of the Azores by Vikings would have been an interesting twist.
 
Colonization of the Azores by Vikings would have been an interesting twist.

thank you. Here is a Kirk Douglas Film of fictional Vikings in Morrocco/Spain, I think, named the Long Ships, with a big golden bell
as the prize (released 1964)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v-mphZD_Xc

b70-3717
 
yeah, i heard about that absorption, too

shall we say that they maintain their cultural identity ITTL?

what we have as being almost definitive parts of the norse empire ITTL, btw, are OTL denmark, norway, england (possibly great britain), and iceland

They have to maintain their cultural identity for this to work. The Normans who invaded England in 1066 defeated the descendants of Vikings, but descendants who practiced Christianity, spoke English, and had English names. The Normans themselves were absorbed Vikings, for that matter.

The only way I can come up with is for the Vikings to make serious inroads into North America, and then have the Little Ice Age cut them off from the Christianity of Europe.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
The Vikings were famous for raping and pillaging all across Europe. Back in a time before birth control this often meant little half Norse babies were born.
There is a derogatory comment in Ireland used on Blonde Irish. Guess your great great grandma wasn't a fast runner.

..errr. You know the majority of the Norse were redheads, right?
 
thank you. Here is a Kirk Douglas Film of fictional Vikings in Morrocco/Spain, I think, named the Long Ships, with a big golden bell
as the prize (released 1964)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v-mphZD_Xc
What if the Vikings colonize Atlantic Islands from the Azores to the Canary Islands, to include Cape Verde. They then would be raiding from Eko (Lagos) to Rabat. The African Slave trade floods Europe. By 1100 Europe's demographic has changed.
 
What is the demand for so many slaves at this point coming from?

Assuming no other issuses.
The Vikings sold thousands of Slavics to Arabs as slaves in exchange for silver from Afghan mines OTL. When the mines ran out of silver there was an economic collapse. The Vikings extended their reign for a few years by raiding Britain, but eventually other kingdoms throughout Europe began to evolve and were able to thwart Viking raids. This is what ended the Viking era.
 
When I read modern Viking Empire I thought Scandinavia, Britain, Normandy, Sicily and Anticoh uniting.
 
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