Modern incarnation of a commerce raider

Because doing so would be violating international law. The 1856 Paris Convention which all major maritime powers have agreed to outlaw privateering. Modern commencec warfare needs to be follow a strict set of wars.

What the OP describe amounts to piracy that all law enforcement and military ships have jurisdictions to engage and arrest such raiders.

Perhaps a loophole exists if the Q ship doesn't fire the first shot and then claims self-defense?
 
Perhaps a loophole exists if the Q ship doesn't fire the first shot and then claims self-defense?

Q ship, by its definition, seldom fire first even when facing uboats. Even if a merchant ship fire back with light weapons (the merchant navy of some countries do carry weapons aboard), the Q ship need to reveal its nationality and use proportional force to subdue the merchant ship.

Using civilian commence raiders as described by OP would put that ship on target list of all countries.
 
Q ship, by its definition, seldom fire first even when facing uboats. Even if a merchant ship fire back with light weapons (the merchant navy of some countries do carry weapons aboard), the Q ship need to reveal its nationality and use proportional force to subdue the merchant ship.

Using civilian commence raiders as described by OP would put that ship on target list of all countries.

Using an armed merchant ship as a raider doesn't break any laws. Crewed by a military crew all they need to do is hoist their nations flag prior to opening fire, even if the first shot goes out as the flag is hoisted. That's how it worked in both World Wars. IF the ship is strictly a civilian vessel that attacks other ships then they would be considered pirates, but that isn't (as I understand it) what he was asking. The ship could even be crewed by all reservists who go active when war breaks out, still legal.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
If your objective is just to sink the other ship, you need to take out the bridge first. Modern vessels have very small crews, with only two, at most three, on watch on the bridge. Destroy the bridge (which is also where the radio equipment is) and the ship can be destroyed at leisure. Torpedo's would be my favorite, as they are almost always lethal and concealable. Alternatively you could board and scuttle. I am unsure about missiles. Modern ships are big, BIG, and will take a bit of work to sink, so whatever you want to use, it needs to be powerful, and not leave much of a trail. One other thing is the possibility of being tracked via satellite. How much that would change in wartime, that's beyond my expertise.
Good point , can torpedo tubes be easily concealed ?
Can they be used against enemy warships too at close range ?
 
Good point , can torpedo tubes be easily concealed ?
Can they be used against enemy warships too at close range ?

Modern torps can be used against just about anything, depending on what the target is. Tubes can be concealed, pretty easily, at least as easily as deck guns. Many are DP, capable of being used as ASW weapons and surface targets. In this case I'd imagine they will be whatever older torps can be spared.
The thing about all this is how and when the armament is put on the ship. Doing it before war is declared, or breaks out, means there is a good chance the ships nature is discovered, and that means a big international incident, ship being interned, etc., so this means you have to put it on JUST BEFORE war breaks out, and then sail to the area you will be working from. Trying to conceal any armament on a merchant ship in peacetime will be problematic to say the least. Best you can do is to prepare the ships structure beforehand for the armament, ie, reinforced decks, cable runs, etc. Probably no one will notice the preparatory work.
 
Because doing so would be violating international law. The 1856 Paris Convention which all major maritime powers have agreed to outlaw privateering. Modern commencec warfare needs to be follow a strict set of wars.

What the OP describe amounts to piracy that all law enforcement and military ships have jurisdictions to engage and arrest such raiders.

No. Piracy is against the jus gentium, of course, always has been, but these would be naval servicemen in disguise.
Privateering also is off limits, as you mention, but again, these wouldn't be, well, private individuals receiving a letter of marque by a state for doing piracy with a state's permission. They'd be naval servicemen in disguise.

So the law you want to look up is not a dusty 1856 treaty but the UNCLOS. Naturally, there's a superpower who's not a signatory of that (I'm looking at you, USA), but if the OP assumption is small wars among minor powers, that's not a problem.

And under the UNCLOS, piracy pretty much means doing violence for private profit - as it has always been. Art. 101. Not the case of a naval crew manning this warship in disguise.

---

No, the objection is practical. Nowadays, you can't just steam off sight of the coast and just paint your hull like that neutral trawler you know is somewhere at sea. Well, you can, but nobody's going to be fooled.
 
One word: satellites.
Today I would agree with you. In 1990 or earlier I am not so sure. IMHO Today's sattelite communications would be a significant complication for a disguised commerce raider.

I'm not sure how common maritime sattelite communications were in 1990 or earlier ? I believe classic long range MF / HF marine radios that in some ways hadn't changed much since WW2 was still a thing in 1990 ?

If a great power is involved I would expect there could also be some use of surveliance satellites pre 1990.
 
Last edited:
The biggest problem for any modern commerce raider would I'd think be preventing its preys from calling off a distress call. Gone are the days when your preys could only ask for help with a faulty wireless transmitter after tapping out a lengthy morse code message before having their antenna shot off by a well-targeted gunshot. Nowadays a simple handheld device can transmit actual live video of the attack to anywhere in the world instantly.

Which means you have two solutions :

1. You can build something powerful enough in order to be sure you will instantly destroy your target, which means using torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and other noisy devices alongside heavy defensive assets to protect yourself if you fail.
2. You can decide to be stealthy, using a mothership equipped with unmanned diesel electric submarines and underwater drones of various sizes. The idea is that unmanned units should be able to operate as far away as possible from the mothership as an easy solution to conceal the military nature of my Q "brain" ship.

I would personally prefer the second solution. The ROVs and AUVs, deployed from the Q ship would be of various types and sizes. The versatility of these vehicles allows them to perform many missions, while also being more cost effective and preserving military personnel from the Q ship. Medium diesel electric submarine-looking ones could even launch torpedoes, missiles (think of a bigger Chinese Navy HSU-001) or deploy smaller drones,

You could have many types of drones, underwater gliders similar to the Liberdade class and the Slocum class, alongside supercavitating torpedo drones based in the Skhval torpedoes or floating drones. Q ship could also deploy other underwater drones used for intelligence, reconnaissance, mine countermeasures (mine sweeping etc.), mine laying and submarine warfare. Many other types of underwater drones are possible, using biomimetics.

My Q ship will be shadowed with huge underwater drones, similar to the Orca XLUUV, in order to protect my Q ship and to extend the range of my numerous unmanned diesel electric submarines and drones. They could also deploy aerial reconnaissance drones if needed (Blackwing drones). Those nuclear-powered XLUUV can even supply my Q ship with new underwater drones or directly deploy them (first link).

We could even have robotic limpet mines or swarms. A self propelled high explosive magnetic mine looking like a torpedo that explodes or attaches itself to the hull of a target ship and can be detonated hours or even days later by either timer or remote control. These autonomous mines alone or in groups (seeding an enemy harbor) are deployed from hatches located below the waterline of the commerce raider or simply thrown overboard when A ship passes in the vicinity of a target ship (torpedo range). An accompanying XLUUV can also launch them in packs (second link).

I even imagined automated mines and torpedoes set on seabed patiently waiting for an enemy ship and able to thrust at supercavitating speed to their targets or to slowly attach themselves to it, like ambush predators. I am sure they already exist.

I hesitate to add surface vessels (USV) working as surface close range protection units and to protect the mothership from submarines. They could be useful, but it would make the Q ship too noticeable (third link).

- Q Brain ship
- XLUUVs (ROVs and AUVs)
- Unmanned electric diesel submarines (ROVs and AUVs)
- Drones of various types (ROVs and AUVs)
- Robotic limpet mines/swarms (AI controlled only)

- https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-u...-large-unmanned-underwater-vehicle-xluuv.html
- https://www.newscientist.com/article/2166572-watch-a-swarm-of-underwater-drones-hunt-and-surround-a-boat/?utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=SOC&utm_campaign=hoot&cmpid=SOC|NSNS|2016-GLOBAL-hoot
- http://www.rokem.com/index.php/default/content/57.html
 
Last edited:
Using an armed merchant ship as a raider doesn't break any laws. Crewed by a military crew all they need to do is hoist their nations flag prior to opening fire, even if the first shot goes out as the flag is hoisted. That's how it worked in both World Wars. IF the ship is strictly a civilian vessel that attacks other ships then they would be considered pirates, but that isn't (as I understand it) what he was asking. The ship could even be crewed by all reservists who go active when war breaks out, still legal.

I agree with what you said, buy my understanding of OP's intention differs from yours, esp with the discussion of missiles.
 
No. Piracy is against the jus gentium, of course, always has been, but these would be naval servicemen in disguise.
Privateering also is off limits, as you mention, but again, these wouldn't be, well, private individuals receiving a letter of marque by a state for doing piracy with a state's permission. They'd be naval servicemen in disguise.

So the law you want to look up is not a dusty 1856 treaty but the UNCLOS. Naturally, there's a superpower who's not a signatory of that (I'm looking at you, USA), but if the OP assumption is small wars among minor powers, that's not a problem.

And under the UNCLOS, piracy pretty much means doing violence for private profit - as it has always been. Art. 101. Not the case of a naval crew manning this warship in disguise.

---

No, the objection is practical. Nowadays, you can't just steam off sight of the coast and just paint your hull like that neutral trawler you know is somewhere at sea. Well, you can, but nobody's going to be fooled.

The discussion on p.1 sounds like the intention is to equip civilian ships with missiles and to hit other civilian ships from afar without announcing its real identity, which differs from what you and I are discussing.
 
Because doing so would be violating international law. The 1856 Paris Convention which all major maritime powers have agreed to outlaw privateering. Modern commencec warfare needs to be follow a strict set of wars.

What the OP describe amounts to piracy that all law enforcement and military ships have jurisdictions to engage and arrest such raiders.

The largest naval power by a significant factor for most of the last century (The US) never agreed to it.
 
The largest naval power by a significant factor for most of the last century (The US) never agreed to it.

While the USA never formally entered into the Convention:

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/105
Virtually all States acceded to the Declaration. The United States, which aimed at a complete exemption of private property from capture at sea, withheld its formal adherence, its amendment not having been accepted by all the Powers. In 1861, at the beginning of the Civil War, the United States announced nevertheless that it would respect the principles of the Declaration for the duration of the hostilities.

Equally, in 1898 during the war against Spain, it was affirmed that the policy of the government of the United States would be to abide by the provisions of the Declaration throughout the hostilities. The rules laid down in the Declaration were later considered as part of general international law and even the United States, which is not formally a party thereto, abides by its provisions.

Such long term volunteering compliance to the Convention (subject to declared exceptions), amounts to "acquiescence"(this is a usage differs from its usual, day to day meaning) in customary international law.
 
The largest naval power by a significant factor for most of the last century (The US) never agreed to it.

Do you seriously think that the US is going to jeopardize its trade relations by issuing letters of marquee? The US has no real reason for commerce raiding we own the seas.
 
If we're talking about Cold War era, the Soviet Navy would benefit about at least rumours of the Soviet commercial ships and trawlers capable of being used in auxiliary commercial raider role. Soviets had the fifth largest merchant fleet in the world with some 1700 ships and some 4000 ocean going fishing vessels in mid 70's.

If I were the Soviets, I would perhaps even publicly display photographs and films of some "reserve exercise" where guns, torpedos and mines, perhaps even Termit missiles, were installed in a merchant ship or a trawler in a quick manner.

In a conventional wonderland scenario it would take some time along other commitments for the NATO and aligned fleets to find, fix and neutralize/sink/capture Soviet merchant ships.


https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000681969.pdf
 
What is being described here is something more akin to an arsenal ship than anything else. Long story short, the utility of such ships are extremely limited and could in no way perform the role that is envisioned for it.

1: such ships cannot operate their missile systems independently effectively. They are dependent on other ships/aircraft to do the targeting for them

2: such ships cannot escape once they've struck as they would be easy to find and track once they have struck which leads to the third problem.

3: such ships do not posess effective means of self defense, once they are found they will be easy to take out.

The same problem goes for any other commerce type raider you may envision. Ironically enough, for a ship to be able to effectively operate as a modern raider it needs to be something akin to a modern frigate.
 
The discussion on p.1 sounds like the intention is to equip civilian ships with missiles and to hit other civilian ships from afar without announcing its real identity, which differs from what you and I are discussing.

If the "civilian" ship actually is a military ship in disguise, already a prerequisite for it being a pirate is lost. If on top of that, exactly because it doesn't capture, but sinks, merchant ships, then it's not motivated by private profit, which removes the other aspect of piracy.
 
A merchant ship with hidden vertical launch missile cells. It would be a suicide single-use weapon because it would be tracked down and sunk pretty quickly once revealed itself by using its weapons
 
One thing about Merchant raiders is that you want them to be cheap. Historically almost all of them have been caught, ergo you can expect yours to be. Thus you want to spend the absolute minimum on them so you don't lose much

So fill a broken down old freighter in the 20-30,000 ton range with cheap naval mines, have the ship play Lloyd's Looper until war breaks out then steam to a predetermined point and drop her mines. After that, have a concealable manually operated gun for bullying any merchants you find, if you can put in some jamming gear for cheap do it, otherwise just hope the other guy is asleep at the wheel. Your vessel will be neutralized in short order, but it's justified its cost with the mines, any merchants sunk are gravy and it cost you almost nothing so your far ahead
 
Top