Modern day Vietnam

Have the US be embroiled in a Vietnam like conflict with a POD no earlier than 1980. Bonus points if you can find a conflict the US can be involved in which isn't the in the Islamic World.
 
I think an invasion of Iran from Reagan may do the trick. Iran is across from the Soviet border so the USSR can arm them. THey are four times larger than Iraq, so the US would have a hard time occupying them fully, and their population is about 3 times larger than Iraq. This means with a volunteer army (which the US had in the 80s), the US would not be able to muster up troop levels to completely occupy Iran. However, how tech in the 80s was a world better than the 70s. So, a prolonged war is possible with a good number of casualties and political will (which would be lacking IMHO so soon after Nam) will lead to an eventual defeat.
 
I have played with the notion of JFK avoiding Vietnam and all the assorted mess; negotiated settlement ala Laos, which breaks down but during a period when no American any longer gives an F about a nation they can't pronounce or locate on a map. And then only for Scoop Jackson to get into office circa 1980 and launch us full throttle into defending the Shah in an Iranian Civil War (which only becomes one because US intervention does not allow the Shah to be ousted quickly and means it persists into fighting), which spills out into Soviet intervention in Afghanistan and Iraqi positioning to weaken Iran under Saddam Hussein -- which spills out into Iraqi positioning against Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and an overall threat to Israel -- which leads to possible US action against Iraq as well ala bombing Cambodia. Oh what a lovely clusterfuck. And all that occurs because there is no Vietnam Syndrome to temper US action under a Hawk.

The US cannot tolerate a Left Wing revolution against the Shah, because it may ally with the Soviets. The US cannot tolerate the Ayatollah and the radical clerical class in Iran, because it is so anti-American. And Afghanistan has all of its own obvious implications. And these two are next door to each other.
 
Last edited:

Anchises

Banned
I have played with the notion of JFK avoiding Vietnam and all the assorted mess; negotiated settlement ala Laos, which breaks down but during a period when no American any longer gives an F about a nation they can't pronounce or locate on a map. And then only for Scoop Jackson to get into office circa 1980 and launch us full throttle into defending the Shah in an Iranian Civil War (which only becomes one because US intervention does not allow the Shah to be ousted quickly and means it persists into fighting), which spills out into Soviet intervention in Afghanistan and Iraqi positioning to weaken Iran under Saddam Hussein -- which spills out into Iraqi positioning against Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and an overall threat to Israel -- which leads to possible US action against Iraq as well ala bombing Cambodia. Oh what a lovely clusterfuck. And all that occurs because there is no Vietnam Syndrome to temper US action under a Hawk.

The US cannot tolerate a Left Wing revolution against the Shah, because it may ally with the Soviets. The US cannot tolerate the Ayatollah and the radical clerical class in Iran, because it is so anti-American. And Afghanistan has all of its own obvious implications. And these two are next door to each other.

Great idea. No Vietnam syndrome has a lot of potential.

A seemingly positive POD with dystopian effects later down the line. Vietnam ended the era of the "Imperial Presidency" and gave the intelligence, military and diplomatic establishment a much needed dose of realism.

Take that away and the 80s could be explosive. With SAVAK, the remnants of the military and with the Shah's massive arsenal Iran could seem like a war that the U.S. could win, if they never made the 'Nam experience.

Shiite martyrs,, Radio Teheran, laser guided bombs, a carousel of US-aligned military governments, the Iraqi nuclear reactor is bombed by the USA....

This would be an epic TL. And in 1987 when the USA pulls out and is at the nadir of its military power Saddam decides to swallow Kuwait...
 
(ASB in italics)

The front-line states in the 1970s get the cash and hardware together to whip the ANC into a serious fighting force, and with apartheid on the ropes, the Americans and the Brits intervene to prevent what is viewed as a potential Communist takeover of South Africa.

To avoid domestic political fallout in the allied powers, Anglo-American support is made contingent on the mass abdication of the National Party, to be replaced by a multiracial administration numerically dominated by right-wing blacks("Mangosuthu Buthelezi, come on down!!") Realizing the only other choice is the gulag, all National MPs dutifully resign their posts.

The potemkin parliament fails to sustain popularity for the intervention among black and left-leaning citizens of the US and UK, and eventually public opinion forces either a withdrawal, or a negotiated settlement favourable to the ANC and company. Mandela takes over in a consideraly less forgiving mood than IOTL.
 
Last edited:
Was the Taliban not in political control of Afghanistan prior to the invasion?
And they were not afterward. In Vietnam, the US never took them out of power. Big difference. This is why I propose a war in Iran, which was not impossible in the late 70s and 80s, as a possible POD to fulfill the OP.
 
Great idea. No Vietnam syndrome has a lot of potential.

A seemingly positive POD with dystopian effects later down the line. Vietnam ended the era of the "Imperial Presidency" and gave the intelligence, military and diplomatic establishment a much needed dose of realism.

Take that away and the 80s could be explosive. With SAVAK, the remnants of the military and with the Shah's massive arsenal Iran could seem like a war that the U.S. could win, if they never made the 'Nam experience.

Shiite martyrs,, Radio Teheran, laser guided bombs, a carousel of US-aligned military governments, the Iraqi nuclear reactor is bombed by the USA....

This would be an epic TL. And in 1987 when the USA pulls out and is at the nadir of its military power Saddam decides to swallow Kuwait...

I made a thread or two on the soundtrack of a Long Vietnam. Which would also work here.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-soundtrack-to-1980s-american-war.350686/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/music-and-longer-vietnam-war.249837/
 
Maybe something in Latin America?

Yeah, I thought this would be a cliche. Nicaragua - gotta help those freedom-loving Contras. Or El Salvador. I remember reading at one point that the rebels controlled something like a third of the country, which isn't very big to begin with.

Or Reagan decides to soldier on in Lebanon after the '83 barracks bombing. It is the Middle East but you have to bring it up. And to get American fighting with Iran, you'd probably have to have Iraq on the verge of being conquered.
 
Hanoi was never invaded.

In one respect.

main-qimg-1d6ebc0078b16a235c1a395f91559da2-c
 
Top