Modern Day Roman Empire?

To weaken the power of the pope and the church, there are some half-hearted attempts to introduce an purified Roman Religion, with lots of symbolism and some contemporary occultism. It remains a intellectual exercise for some urban liberals.

Later idea: The least futile way to have a Roman-style neopagan state religion would probably be if you gave it a strong connection with astrology.
Horoscopes are woo, but far-spread and really resilient woo, and you can try to capitalize the importance of industrious Mercury, virginal Luna/Diana, beautiful Venus, warlike Mars, imperious Jupiter and so on.
 
Of course, the Roman Empire didn't fall completely until 1453.

Even after that, the Ottoman Empire claimed to be successor to Roman Empire, which means Rome lasted until WWI!

Meanwhile, various European Christian polities, including Holy Roman Empire, Austria, Tsarist Russia, and Fascist Italy have made some claim to being the successor to Rome.

The division of the Mediterranean world between Christianity and Islam (and then further splits within Christianity) has prevented any state from being able to claim itself the undisputed successor to Rome in a manner similar to China's (at least perceived) historical continuity though.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
So late to the discussion, so much to read!

I think that the Roman Empire would've eventually fell because all empires fall, especially the classical ones. Best case scenario for a modern day Roman empire would be something like the Chinese have where you've got periods of unification and of warring states.

Of course the Roman Empire could survive. Very little in history is inevitable, and the rise and fall of empires is even less so. Of course there will be low tides and high tides over the centuries, there will be territorial losses and gains, but the fall of the Roman Empire was never inevitable. It could survive solely in the east, it could survive with largely the same territory it had at its height, or it could survive in any number of fashions in between.

I have to agree with Sly here, we only say it is inevitable, because IOTL no Empire has survived. But the Byzantines survived for an exemplary period of time compared to other Empires - and I'm sure at the time, nobody expected it to fall.

Carthage, Alexandria, Tarraco (in Spain), Milan. Depending on how far east the empire stretches, Antioch.

I quite like the idea of Carthage, sweet irony indeed :D

Tarraco is also quite interesting.

Carthage does work as a fantastic captial for a Roman Exarchate, which for a fallback is pretty crucial. (The idea of a collapsed Empire, and the Roman Emperor becoming more symbolic whilst the Exarch has the real power is quite an intriguing one.)

Tarraco could work too, but Iberia isn't nearly as defensible as Africa. It could work if Iberian and Africa are secure.

You might find this to be of interest.

Omg Yiis, this is awesome. I may or may not have to use that extensively in something I'm writing. :D

But fundamentally, to the OP - yes, the Roman Empire could survive to this day, as a continual institution. There are simply a number of challenges the Romans have to overcome, permenantly.

1) Stable succession

2) High quality, robust governance

3) Military struggles, these probably highlight the best starting points for PoD's that make the Empire survive longer - which preludes permenance.

So my choice PoDs?

1) Strong Caesarean Dynastic Rule

2) Theodosius creates a stable/sensible succession by living longer

3) Victory at Yarmouk

I think 3 is probably my preference, being later on - but the ERE, under a strong Heraclius, bolstered by victory at Yarmouk, could very well recover from the Persian Wars faster than Persia, and Arabia is beaten back for the moment.

Depending on the response after the victory (is it wise to take Mesopotamia? Can the Romans take Arabia and prevent them being a threat?), we can probably see the Empire survive. A Roman Arabia is largely a source of desert cavalry that would exist as a convenient fast cavalr force against Persian invasions (and potentially offensives against Persia, good idea or bad), and some more influence in the Indian Ocean. A Roman Mesopotamia is a very wealthy addition to the Empire, but fundamentally relies on whether it is defensible from the Iranian Plateau - which might take most of the wealth of Mesopotamia. But with both of those in Roman hands? It frees up forces to go west. This is where control of Arabia really shines - Bedouin cavalry, brought in, using desert warfare in the Sahara can really help the Romans, and makes Africa more secure, and could very well enable the Romans to take control of the various oases that enable people to invade Africa. Taking those and fortifying them, is as good as building a wall the length of the Rhine, making Africa more secure. (Sidenote : this could make it secure enough for the fantastic idea of a canal to expand the Chott el Djerid in Tunisia)

With the Sahara, Mesopotamia, and the Balkans as secure(ish) buffer zones, the core Empire is safe - and in a fantastic economic position. I have every faith that with good campaigns in Iberia and Italia, after allowing their demographics to recover, and a bit of cunning in Persia, Arabia, and Frankia - that the Romans could rebuild at the least a "Mare Nostrum". After that it is good governance, and it is early enough to ensure that being "Roman" is the main cultural identity.

Throw in absurd wealth from potentially discovering the New World? Then the Roman Empire can afford better defenses, and potentially expansion to shorter European borders.

TL;DR Yarmouk has a big turning point, if the Romans can win it, and turn the next century into a good one, then they have every chance of making the next milennia a stable, or expansionary period, rather than a steady decline. A Roman Empire of that size in the 1600's/1700's is going to exist till today.
 
Even after Yarmouk though disastrous the ERE could have persevered, indeed it wasnt until the sack of Constantinple by the Crusaders that their position started to become untenable, until that point the empire had the resources and was arguably one of the most powerful states if not the most in the eastern medditerenean.

After this there still the possibility for recovery but its becoming increansingly difficult as the years pass though a combination of strong emperors ,lack of civil wars and the mongols and later the timurids harassing the turks could certainly help.
 
So late to the discussion, so much to read!
*excellent stuff*

Thanks very much for the reply! And the other option was something to do with the Caesarian emperors, so thanks very much for the advice there, i was unaware that Yarmouk was so pivotal! Thanks for the third time
 
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Imperator Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (Clausdius) first son lives long enough to have a son. Giving Claudius a grandson in 34/35 and possibly a living son, but say his son dies before Caligula's reign starts. So Claudius comes to the throne with a 7 or 8 year old grandson, maybe he marries again has another son, but he would not marry his niece, so he could have an extra male heir.

Eventually, in the next couple of generations the rumor that Claudius continued of his father, Drusus, being the natural son of Augustus, gets written into history as truth. Now as Claudius is only male line blood heir to Augustus, his own male line blood descendants become the only legitimate emperors, even though the Emperor can still appoint his successor between his male line male relatives.

Maybe eventually around the second century, a half delusional, brilliant, ruler believes he is a god and creates a semi-monotheistic religion around the Imperial Cult and Sol Invictus. You could even make Julius Caesar into a Jesus like figure who sacrificed his life so Rome could be closer to Sol Invictus's holy will and rule. Now you have a possibly fanatical religion wrapped around the person of the Emperor and his partially theocratic empire, maybe if you have a few brilliant emperors and few lucky breaks, you have a 21st century Roman Empire who rules Europe, Africa, half of Asia, maybe North and South America.

This is my half thought out start to a modern roman empire time line.
 
Forget Yarmouk- just Butterfly Islam entirely. Either way, the Roman Empire remains a Superpower and recovers from the crippling war they just won against Persia.
 
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