Modern Day Roman Empire and the Sahara Project

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Hey all,

I apologise if this is in the wrong subforum, I hadn't the faintest idea which to use.

I was just reading something on Geo-Engineering (basically localised terraforming) on the BBC and the Sahara and Ethiopia kind of jumped out at me as places of interest.

Assuming a sort of 'Mega-Rome' that ends on the Vistula/Carpathians/Dniester line, and controls the red sea, modern Yemen and Somaliland (the latter just so this would in their interests - details are unimportant).

1) Could such a state perform Geo-Engineering on a scale to drastically alter the Sahara?

2) What would the direct effects be?

3) Could the Roman Empire of this timeline adapt and apply Geo-Engineering to stabilise their empire to prevent droughts, floods and famines?
 
Well, the biggest question here (and I know it's not yours but eh :p ) is the motivation. Even if you have both the Sahara and colonies/settlements south of the sahara, it's way easier to pierce the Suez canal that to engineer a whole desert.

We don't have the technology for this now so... Most projects focus on just trying to get the desert not going forward, not reclaiming it

Besides, when a power (the French) were in that situation, they used sea routes. And the biggest project was the transsaharan railroad, maybe there's something there?
 
I think your best bet is the Qattara Depression Project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression_Project

It would significantly alter the weather in North Africa, making it wetter. It would be technically feasible really any time after about 1850 or so if anybody had ever been motivated enough to build it. It would be a canal roughly 20 to 60 m deep and 50 miles long and would create an inland sea.

If a country was significantly motivated to build it and had lots of spare slaves I suppose it could have been built much earlier. The problem is that it's rare for a country to have the foresight or ability to undertake a project this size and length since it would take decades to complete digging by hand. I could see someone like China attempting it though.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Well, the biggest question here (and I know it's not yours but eh :p ) is the motivation. Even if you have both the Sahara and colonies/settlements south of the sahara, it's way easier to pierce the Suez canal that to engineer a whole desert.

We don't have the technology for this now so... Most projects focus on just trying to get the desert not going forward, not reclaiming it

Besides, when a power (the French) were in that situation, they used sea routes. And the biggest project was the transsaharan railroad, maybe there's something there?

Most obviously this would NOT be happening early in the history, not on a Saharan scale - but smaller projects could precede it.

My initial thoughts would have been to increase food production, and create more security south of the Atlas Mts, however there are better places for this sadly. I know that there are projects just south of the Atlas Mts in Algeria and Tunisia to develop the Chotts into salt marshes which could be a goal in more modern Roman times.

Interestingly I just thought this through with my archeology grad flatmate who figured that the Romans with aqueducts, and their understanding of burning glasses/solar concentrators (I fail to understand the difference) could use them in a vanity/prestige project to distil water in a tower up to an aqueduct if they really wished to. It might be considered worthwhile in a 'Hadrians Water Wall' - essentially an aqueduct linking forts that may or may not be inside a wall. (Oh the beautiful mad images - doubtful, but it would look incredible). That would just be with pre-medieval tech. Later on I can imagine it being much easier.

The Quattara depression is always a good idea - but whether to divert the Nile (with potential disaster in starving the delta) or to bring in water from the Mediterranean is a big decision. They would have the resources and manpower - but it would probably be a second to the Suez Canal. In addition the salt is still a problem regardless. The salinity may be good for anything the Romans eat that need saline environments - but being able to keep the temperatures down and have ready water (even if it needs distilling) would make it more sustainable to have a salt industry until (somehow) the place desalinates.

I suppose the most likely thing in the foreseeable term could be either primitive desalination efforts in Tripolitania, or an earlier version of the "Great Man-Made River".

Alas - unless the Romans really kicked up desalination and soil generation knowledge my bonkers pipedream remains bonkers :p

Thanks anyway.
 
Ah, sorry, I didn't properly understand your question, I thought you'd ask if the Roman Empire lasted until now.

A network of aqueducts does sound absolutely GLORIOUS.

Very vulnerable to raiders though, except if you use it as a tool of coertion and pacification (why attack the Romans, they bring us water).

The possibility to create oasis in the middle of nowhere might drastically change the commercial landscape of the Saharan region, leading to better penetration.

Then, I don't know much about climatology but this sounds interesting, although it would be a multi-century project.


It reminds me immensely of the Dune book serie
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Ah, sorry, I didn't properly understand your question, I thought you'd ask if the Roman Empire lasted until now.

A network of aqueducts does sound absolutely GLORIOUS.

Very vulnerable to raiders though, except if you use it as a tool of coertion and pacification (why attack the Romans, they bring us water).

The possibility to create oasis in the middle of nowhere might drastically change the commercial landscape of the Saharan region, leading to better penetration.

Then, I don't know much about climatology but this sounds interesting, although it would be a multi-century project.


It reminds me immensely of the Dune book serie

It was throughout any time period to be honest.

But a micro-Arrakis is a great idea!

An interesting (v.early) example might be if the Garamentes offered their vassalage if they could get fresh water as Garama starts to dry up. Either that, or Septimus Severus offers it in a peace rather than just abandon the Fezzan.

Which could mean at least the maintenance of the Fezzan as agricultural land!

But you are right - this would be a multi-century project regardless of technology. Even if they sourced all water in the Fezzan from the aqueduct system - a vast amount - it'd be interesting to know if they thought they could 'refill' the aquifers and raise the ground water level. That would have all sorts of unintended consequences!
 
The other problem is the Romans were hardly conservationists, shall we say. I don't think they would know enough to do anything practical in terms of desert reclamation, and might not care if they did.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
The other problem is the Romans were hardly conservationists, shall we say. I don't think they would know enough to do anything practical in terms of desert reclamation, and might not care if they did.

Unless you had ambitious governors in Africa getting pissed off that their incomes keep dropping, I mean the Romans drained marshes in Gaul, and were the kings of ancient infrastructure. If you see this as the opposite of marsh-draining, or hell, as just massive irrigation.

I'm not expecting them to give a damn about preserving habitats, just to think that they'd rather have farmland than desert - whilst having the resources to do so.

I fully expect the earliest for ANYTHING would be some Roman Garamophile wanting to expand or mimic what they did in the Fezzan, and then make it worthwhile.

Either that or wait till later and go crazy on the Quattara Depression.
 
Unless you had ambitious governors in Africa getting pissed off that their incomes keep dropping, I mean the Romans drained marshes in Gaul, and were the kings of ancient infrastructure. If you see this as the opposite of marsh-draining, or hell, as just massive irrigation.

I'm not expecting them to give a damn about preserving habitats, just to think that they'd rather have farmland than desert - whilst having the resources to do so.

I fully expect the earliest for ANYTHING would be some Roman Garamophile wanting to expand or mimic what they did in the Fezzan, and then make it worthwhile.

Either that or wait till later and go crazy on the Quattara Depression.

??Where are they getting the fresh water for this massive irrigation project?

Those massive aqueducts were great for getting drinking water to cities, but weren't anything like enough for irrigation, not of more than a few garden spots, I don't think.

The amount of water agriculture needs is unbelievably huge.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
??Where are they getting the fresh water for this massive irrigation project?

Those massive aqueducts were great for getting drinking water to cities, but weren't anything like enough for irrigation, not of more than a few garden spots, I don't think.

The amount of water agriculture needs is unbelievably huge.

Oh, you're entirely right.

Probably why they didn't do anything IOTL. But at some point someone will discover desalination - be it via burning glasses and distillation, or later on using coal, oil or electricity. I can't imagine there is any fresh water really to spare, unless you redirect the nile a bit - and that would only be feasible for the Quattara depression - which still creates a salt lake. :(
 
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