Mistrusting Medics Might Save Monarchies-A PoD concerning French Royalty ca.17122

I think she might have chosen wisely for Berri (and let's not mistake it - it would have been her choice) if Berri lives and his Orleanist wife still dies early. I think everyone at court recognized that marriage was a disaster.

Adélaïde was involved in the choosing of the first duchesse de Berri. The choice came down to between Mademoiselle d'Orléans and Mademoiselle de Charolais because France was too broke to be able to finance a foreign bride. Adélaïde went with the Orléans girl because she hated Madame la Duchesse (Charolais' mother) as a result of some spiteful ditties about her when she had first arrived in France. And for some unknown reason, Louis XIV never seemed to consider La Consolatrice as a candidate for Berri's wife, probably the whole thing of too important and not important enough.

What would be a cool triple butterfly is if James Francis Edward marries Isabella Farnese, Philip V marries Louisa Maria as his second wife, and Berri marries one of the Sobieska girls as a way of affirming France's ties with Poland. Charlotte Sobieska came to Versailles as wife of two consecutive ducs de Bouillon. But Clementina would likewise be interesting.
 
Adélaïde was involved in the choosing of the first duchesse de Berri. The choice came down to between Mademoiselle d'Orléans and Mademoiselle de Charolais because France was too broke to be able to finance a foreign bride. Adélaïde went with the Orléans girl because she hated Madame la Duchesse (Charolais' mother) as a result of some spiteful ditties about her when she had first arrived in France. And for some unknown reason, Louis XIV never seemed to consider La Consolatrice as a candidate for Berri's wife, probably the whole thing of too important and not important enough.

What would be a cool triple butterfly is if James Francis Edward marries Isabella Farnese, Philip V marries Louisa Maria as his second wife, and Berri marries one of the Sobieska girls as a way of affirming France's ties with Poland. Charlotte Sobieska came to Versailles as wife of two consecutive ducs de Bouillon. But Clementina would likewise be interesting.

Yes, I'm well aware if was M-A who chose the first wife. But I think she would have seen the error of her ways in a redo. She lost a lot of her frivolous nature towards the end of her life.

I've often thought of a possible alt-husband for Clementina Sobieska since I think she would have been much happier not married to JFES. Marrying her to Berri and having him be a French candidate for the Polish throne (as the Duc de Conti once was) with her pedigree might have made things VERY interesting - if France takes an sustained interest in Poland early on. I think it's very clear that if Louis and M-A live the Leszczyński allliance never happens and Marie Leszczyńska marries elsewhere.

Philip marrying Louisa is very interesting as well. I never thought of it but it works. She grew up with Philip, M-A, and Louis, was raised in the French court, yet was of the bluest-blood (and Philip's cousin) and was very close to M-A (as much a sister as Philip's first wife who was her actual sister).

If they could pull it off (and JFES marrying the heiress of Parma which would make Queen Anne and her minister's head explode) it would be interesting to see the reaction of the rest of Europe.
 
Not to mention that Isabel Farnese is the senior claimant to the Lancastrian line going all the way back to John of Gaunt's eldest daughter, Philippa, the Queen of Portugal. So, much like Philip II, I wonder if the lady, spurring Jamie on, might paint herself as an "English" queen.
 
Not to mention that Isabel Farnese is the senior claimant to the Lancastrian line going all the way back to John of Gaunt's eldest daughter, Philippa, the Queen of Portugal. So, much like Philip II, I wonder if the lady, spurring Jamie on, might paint herself as an "English" queen.

She was certainly ambitious enough from what I've read. I still if it could have happened. Would England have let JFES (who it basically forced to become an exile across Europe in every treaty it made) get a foothold and be a consort to a reigning head of state with an heir to his claims also being a head of state?

Though I still like the idea of Louisa marrying Philip V instead and perhaps the Jacobite claim continuing in a cadet line of the Bourbons (with France and Spain now having a particular dynastic interest in any 1715 or 1745-like uprising against the Hanoverians). How would a 1715 or 45 go with Spanish/French support?
 
She was certainly ambitious enough from what I've read. I still if it could have happened. Would England have let JFES (who it basically forced to become an exile across Europe in every treaty it made) get a foothold and be a consort to a reigning head of state with an heir to his claims also being a head of state?

Though I still like the idea of Louisa marrying Philip V instead and perhaps the Jacobite claim continuing in a cadet line of the Bourbons (with France and Spain now having a particular dynastic interest in any 1715 or 1745-like uprising against the Hanoverians). How would a 1715 or 45 go with Spanish/French support?

I think with France and/or Spain having a vested dynastic interest, rather than just some airy distant relation to the Stuarts (who when appealing to their Bourbon cousins, always placed particular emphasis on their descent from Henri IV and their shared Bourbon ancestry through Marie de Guise), would definitely be different to OTL. Spain might do more than what it did in the War of the Quadruple Alliance with the '18 if there's definite reason to want to invade England (like, say, the Spanish queen being an English princess, perhaps:D). Likewise, the Regence in France seemed more concerned with eliminating the Spanish king's claims to the French throne (hence an alliance with England, Holland and Austria - three traditional enemies), which obviously won't be the case with Bourgogne in control instead of Orléans.

However, something which does worry me is that the Bourbons in France and the Bourbons in Spain (who without La Farnese's urging, might never get their hands on Naples/Sicily/Parma) might repeat the mistakes of their Habsburg predecessors, and in a century or so, we end up with a second Carlos II - just Bourbon instead of Habsburg.

I've also been thinking, that if Bourgogne lives at least as long as Anjou, the Anglo-French alliance that came about due to the youth of OTL Louis XV and the ill-fitting crown George I wore, is unlikely, especially if the Bourbons enfold a Stuart princess in the family. But Bourgogne is at the same time likely to keep Dubois and de Fleury on his council (if only because of their religious backgrounds).
 
I think with France and/or Spain having a vested dynastic interest, rather than just some airy distant relation to the Stuarts (who when appealing to their Bourbon cousins, always placed particular emphasis on their descent from Henri IV and their shared Bourbon ancestry through Marie de Guise), would definitely be different to OTL. Spain might do more than what it did in the War of the Quadruple Alliance with the '18 if there's definite reason to want to invade England (like, say, the Spanish queen being an English princess, perhaps:D). Likewise, the Regence in France seemed more concerned with eliminating the Spanish king's claims to the French throne (hence an alliance with England, Holland and Austria - three traditional enemies), which obviously won't be the case with Bourgogne in control instead of Orléans.

However, something which does worry me is that the Bourbons in France and the Bourbons in Spain (who without La Farnese's urging, might never get their hands on Naples/Sicily/Parma) might repeat the mistakes of their Habsburg predecessors, and in a century or so, we end up with a second Carlos II - just Bourbon instead of Habsburg.

I've also been thinking, that if Bourgogne lives at least as long as Anjou, the Anglo-French alliance that came about due to the youth of OTL Louis XV and the ill-fitting crown George I wore, is unlikely, especially if the Bourbons enfold a Stuart princess in the family. But Bourgogne is at the same time likely to keep Dubois and de Fleury on his council (if only because of their religious backgrounds).

Yes, I think an Anglo-French alliance is not likely whether Louisa married Berri/Philip V or not. Bourgogne probably won't have the incentive and he won't feel inclined personally to the Hanoverians. Marie-Adelaide certainly wouldn't. I can easily see the French and Indian War happening sooner than it did.

I think we could easily end up with a Charles II among the Bourbons, Louis XIV had married his first cousin after all and Marie-Adelaide was second cousins with Bourgogne and Philip with Maria Luisa (and remember how OTL Louis XV was briefly engaged to Philip and Elisabeth Farnese's daughter's Mariana Victoria who as Queen of Portugal saw her daughter, Maria I married to her uncle). One way to fix that is for Marie-Adelaide to continue only having boys (all her offspring were sons) and for Philip V to not have any daughters (he too had only sons with Maria Luisa of Savoy). Any Bourbons would thus take at least a generation to come together.

Although a surplus of sons (rather than the lack of a surplus as in OTL) would result in what to do with them. Would Philip V send one of his to the Americas as Viceroy instead of having a Charles III (who is not born in OTL) in Naples and Parma? Would Bourgogne make a play for OTL Belgium or perhaps, more likely if there is still some kind of Polish connection, to make a permanent Bourbon presence in Poland-Lithuania? Which would make the later partition of Poland by Prussia, Austria, and Russia either VERY difficult or not possible without a major war.
 
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One way to fix that is for Marie-Adelaide to continue only having boys (all her offspring were sons) and for Philip V to not have any daughters (he too had only sons with Maria Luisa of Savoy). Any Bourbons would thus take at least a generation to come together.

All Adélaïde's surviving offspring were sons, she miscarried two daughters - one in 1702, and another somewhat later, I'm tempted to say that her 1711 miscarriage was a girl but can't remember exactly. In the First Lady of Versailles - a biography on Adelaide - they mention several miscarriages. However, one, a boy, resulted in the courtiers being too afraid to tell the king, and when they finally did, he exploded at them saying: "What care I who succeeds me? The duchesse de Bourgogne is still young and the duc de Berri (at that point unmarried) is still of an age to have children", Saint-Simon recounts that after this outburst, you could hear an ant walking as the king then passed a comment about the fish in the pool. (They were at Fontainebleau). And with another of her miscarriages, it was said that "no one minded too much, since it was only a girl."

Another result of the 30 Years Peace's Anglo-French Alliance, was the possibility of King George II's eldest daughter, Anne, becoming Queen of France. However, it was declined by St. James' due to the fact (despite George I and II wanting the match) that her father owed his throne to his Protestantism, and marrying his daughter to a Catholic might recreate the Stuart relation with France. And if Louisa Maria and Adelaide - who are both higher in succession than George I, George II & Anne - are included in the Bourbons, it ain't gonna fly, even if there is a TTL Anglo-French alliance.
 
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All Adélaïde's surviving offspring were sons, she miscarried two daughters - one in 1702, and another somewhat later, I'm tempted to say that her 1711 miscarriage was a girl but can't remember exactly. In the First Lady of Versailles - a biography on Adelaide - they mention several miscarriages. However, one, a boy, resulted in the courtiers being too afraid to tell the king, and when they finally did, he exploded at them saying: "What care I who succeeds me? The duchesse de Bourgogne is still young and the duc de Berri (at that point unmarried) is still of an age to have children", Saint-Simon recounts that after this outburst, you could hear an ant walking as the king then passed a comment about the fish in the pool. (They were at Fontainebleau). And with another of her miscarriages, it was said that "no one minded too much, since it was only a girl."

Another result of the 30 Years Peace's Anglo-French Alliance, was the possibility of King George II's eldest daughter, Anne, becoming Queen of France. However, it was declined by St. James' due to the fact (despite George I and II wanting the match) that her father owed his throne to his Protestantism, and marrying his daughter to a Catholic might recreate the Stuart relation with France. And if Louisa Maria and Adelaide - who are both higher in succession than George I, George II & Anne - are included in the Bourbons, it ain't gonna fly, even if there is a TTL Anglo-French alliance.

Louis XIV's callousness when it came to the deaths of his descendants was always problematic. It took the triple deaths of Marie-Adelaide, Bourgogne and Brittany and then Berri right after that to really hit him.

Like I said I think there is a good shot at an earlier Anglo-French war than in OTL (even though Bourgogne was largely anti-war). I wonder if there is a possibility of it turning out differently if it happens earlier? Could New France be saved?

And who would Berri marry if he survives if not Elisabeth Farnese (or Louisa Stuart?). It would have to be someone who helps the French in some way - especially with Bourgogne having two (or more) heirs to France, and Philip V having two (or more) heirs in Spain by 1719.
 
Louis XIV's callousness when it came to the deaths of his descendants was always problematic. It took the triple deaths of Marie-Adelaide, Bourgogne and Brittany and then Berri right after that to really hit him.

Like I said I think there is a good shot at an earlier Anglo-French war than in OTL (even though Bourgogne was largely anti-war). I wonder if there is a possibility of it turning out differently if it happens earlier? Could New France be saved?

And who would Berri marry if he survives if not Elisabeth Farnese (or Louisa Stuart?). It would have to be someone who helps the French in some way - especially with Bourgogne having two (or more) heirs to France, and Philip V having two (or more) heirs in Spain by 1719.

Maybe his cousin, Maria Anna Karoline of Bavaria? She became a nun OTL, IDK if this was because she was truly inspired to join a convent or there were simply no men available for her to marry.

Another option is the OTL duchesse d'Orléans, Johanna of Baden. As mentioned above a Sobieska wouldn't be out of the question. Amalia Giuseppina d'Este married a Frenchman OTL, so her hooking up with Berri's not too much of a stretch. Otherwise, you're looking for a princess who finds Paris is worth a mass, due to the fact there aren't a whole lot of Catholic princesses around.
 
Another option is the OTL duchesse d'Orléans, Johanna of Baden. As mentioned above a Sobieska wouldn't be out of the question. Amalia Giuseppina d'Este married a Frenchman OTL, so her hooking up with Berri's not too much of a stretch. Otherwise, you're looking for a princess who finds Paris is worth a mass, due to the fact there aren't a whole lot of Catholic princesses around.

Lisolotte, the Duchess d'Orleans was Protestant turned Catholic to marry the King's brother. I can definitely see another member of a minor German house who would do the same for Bourgogne/Louis XV's brother. Not an Hanoverian due to the British connection but perhaps a Hesse or Mecklenburg? I do like the Polish match though. If not one of the Sobieski girls, how about Anna Leszcysnka (older sister of OTL's Louis XV's queen), died at 18 in 1717. She lives another 2 years and she's in perfect place to become Berri's wife. Or if you want to in a really different direction - Ivan V's youngest daughter (and Peter the Great's niece), Praskovya Ivanovna. Peter the Great did come to France during the Regency of the Duke d'Orleans, if he does the same with Bourgogne alive as an active monarch, I could see an alliance.

Which leads to the question - if Berri does make a Polish match, do France/Spain use it at some point to advance the claims of Berri and/or any heirs. Poland is an elective monarchy and when Augustus the Strong dies in 1733, France could be a player with a dynastic candidate as King of Poland (and with Berri as King of Poland and allied to both France/Spain it is unlikely the partition would even happen as it did in OTL).
 
Lisolotte, the Duchess d'Orleans was Protestant turned Catholic to marry the King's brother. I can definitely see another member of a minor German house who would do the same for Bourgogne/Louis XV's brother. Not an Hanoverian due to the British connection but perhaps a Hesse or Mecklenburg? I do like the Polish match though. If not one of the Sobieski girls, how about Anna Leszcysnka (older sister of OTL's Louis XV's queen), died at 18 in 1717. She lives another 2 years and she's in perfect place to become Berri's wife. Or if you want to in a really different direction - Ivan V's youngest daughter (and Peter the Great's niece), Praskovya Ivanovna. Peter the Great did come to France during the Regency of the Duke d'Orleans, if he does the same with Bourgogne alive as an active monarch, I could see an alliance.

Which leads to the question - if Berri does make a Polish match, do France/Spain use it at some point to advance the claims of Berri and/or any heirs. Poland is an elective monarchy and when Augustus the Strong dies in 1733, France could be a player with a dynastic candidate as King of Poland (and with Berri as King of Poland and allied to both France/Spain it is unlikely the partition would even happen as it did in OTL).

Praskovia's unlikely. They're likely to hit the same snag as with Peter's daughters - a discrepancy in forms of address. That said, several sources point out that Praskovia was possibly somewhat mentally retarded - hence why she didn't marry abroad, and married comparatively late. However, as the lovely Valena pointed out in another thread, Praskovia's retardation is "dubious at best", with opposing theories flying around.

Theodora of Hesse, OTL duchess of Guastalla, is always possible. She was Catholic, around about the right age, and her mother was Belgian aristocracy. Sadly IDK if she was fertile since both her and brother who married left no children (admittedly, AFAIR, her marriage lasted all of a few months, and he was married to woman in her late 30s). Interestingly enough, Theodora's OTL husband proposed to Charlotte Sobieska first. However, that girl refused point-blank saying she didn't want to marry a madman. Another candidate would be the Dowager Duchess of Rovere, Eleonora Maria Luisa Gonzaga. She lived till 1741, reportedly popping out four bastards according to Horace Mann, though considering her one brother was the madman that Charlotte refused to marry, and the other was a retard, you might want to keep any Berris exhibited in your menagerie.
 
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