Mississippi Rice (timeline)

While I haven't read it from the horses mouth, I have had Jared Diamonds ideas explained in some detail, and I have done research into the relative arguments for and against and from what I know of the theory I am demurring quite a bit.

As for my wild rice and bison, I understand the skepticism in the latter case. From their nature bison seem to be a challenge to domesticate, but I don't believe its insurmountable. They've been semi-domesticated OTL. As for wild rice, there were OTL attempts to domesticate it, which failed mainly due to the fact that they were prone to shattering too easily. When a shattering-resistant cultivar was discovered in the 19th century was discovered, wild rice agriculture in OTL became much more successful. This TL pushes that discovery back a few millenia, and adds a useful new crop to the agricultural package that already existed OTL.

I will review the bison, again. But I am satisfied with the plausibility of my wild rice agriculture. It was done OTL later, so it's possible. And thats the whole point of the PoD.
 
Ophesia

Of historical figures, Ophesia is most often compared with Cleopatra of Egypt. As the Egyptian queen seduced Caesar and Mark Antony, Ophesia seduced first the Spanish conquistador sent to take here kingdom, and then the Spanish court. Her rise was based significantly on luck. Married to the pederast king Anuk Axe, it was her intelligence and wit at a young age that first enflamed his perverted lust. She endured for some years a life of morbid horror (later giving her name to a fad of obscene novels and plays several centuries later, the so-called Ophesian stories popular among the lower classes in Europe, Laurentia and Pinzonia). However, in this time she made a large number of allies, in the courts and military. Anuk Axe's famed paranoid jealousy led him to create an order of warriors for the sole intention of protected the queen. These trained warriors, eunuchs to a man, became personally loyal to the queen. When, in 1512, smallpox finally reached the Equayor proper and decimated the Syuda empire, the queen survived her illness even as her husband and bulk of her family members died around her. The throne would have gone to the king's unstable and coddled younger brother, but the Queen's Guard were able to secure control of the city. Ophesia became aware of the troubles to the south and realised the plagues were somehow related to the strange people who were said to have conquered the Muskogean kingdoms. Spies and traders brought intelligence north, including a copy of their religious text. When the Spanish arrived with a host of Giwegian, Megakwaxakan, Sauxese and Fegan auxiliaries, they found their approach unimpeded once they entered the Equayor river.

Upon reaching the capital, the Spanish found themselves welcomed by the populace and a queen who knew they were coming. She was greeted them in the Masaguay trade language, and then some words of Spanish. Her plans were dashed by the Lower Megalopotamian auxiliaries, who despite the welcome decided to take the opportunity for revenge upon their Syuda tormenters. As they began to riot, the Queen and her retinue were taken by force by the Spanish. The Queen's Men fought back against the Lower Megalopotamians, but obeyed their instructions not to harm the Spanish. The queen was taken to the south, but treated well. There was a great debate among the Spanish over the legitimacy of this action, and as the Queen professed a conversion to Christianity this cause many rumours of a massacre of newly converted Syuda Christians by the Megalopotamians. Queen Ophesia stepped into a role as a Pinzonian Prester John. She remained, a hostage in a gilded cage, in Iqala for years as the Spanish debated, and blood flowed in the Equayor as Anuk Axe II's forces were scattered by the Spanish and the Lower Megalopotamians. Eventually, she came to Spain itself for an audience with the King Philip. She brought a large retinue, including her alleged daughter, a young girl named Adagadei. There, her command of Spanish and her conversion to Christianity made her allies, and she became to be treated as a royal guest more than a hostage.

Adagadei is the subject of much scholarly interest, as there is a strong argument that she was not the daughter of Ophesia, or even of Syuda descent. Her pale skin and resistance to disease suggests mixed blood. Some scholars claim her to be the Juanan descendant of a Spanish rogue and a Masaguay slave girl, adopted by Ophesia during her captivity as her own children succumbed to the pox. This theory is controversial, for what happened with the girl. Proclaimed as a Christian of royal blood, she was married to Philip's son Ferdinand in a controversial ceremony that secured both Hapsburg control of the Equayor while allowing the Syuda empire to remain, in theory, politically intact. When Ophesia finally died of measles in 1523, succession passed straight to Ferdinand, though this displeased some in Spanish Masaguay and America it was supported by the King.

There remained, however, the fact that Anuk Axe II remained at large in the east of Equayor. His armies fell apart however, and he was last seen in 1524. He is assumed to have died an ignoble death, but the ambiguity was to be the cause of political problems in Equayor for years to come. Stories of his survival, in a supernatural form, or that he fathered children to whom the Syuda succession rightfully belongs, became popular legends in Equayor, though they would not achieve their strongest resonance for centuries to come. For the time being, Equayor was now Hapsburg, but the legacy of the Syuda empire was secure from enemies old and new.

PrincessKe.jpg
 
Tormsen,

With regards to the plausibility of your TL's domestication of rice and bison, that's all water over the dam now. You presented your ideas, we presented our quibbles, and we then both presented our rebutals. That particular discussion is finished now, don't expend anymore "skull sweat" over it and expend all the energy your "little grey cells" produce on the timeline itself. The plausibility issue is now moot.

With regards to your timeline itself, I do believe you've overlooked the very distinct possibility of New World diseases. Simply put, domesticated animals mean human epidemics. With the Amerind "crop package" now including more domesticed animals, the Amerind populations will have their own "slate wipers". The nifty, or horrible, part of all this is that the Amerind slate wipers will mostly work on Eurasians. The Columbian Exchange will go both ways in your TL. Just how nasty the Exchange will be is up to you naturally.

A quick google search dredged up a partially developed timeline developed on this two-way Columbian Exchange. SJGames' current RPG rules set is based around an "infinite worlds" - sideways time travel motif. Most of the AH ideas presented in that game are pedestrian (i.e. Hitler/CSA wins) and many others are twee (i.e. magic or pulp sci-fi worlds), but some are rather intriguing. One such is called Jenner-1 and was developed by Paul Drye. In it, the Amerinds don't kill off horses when they arrive, domesticate them instead, and have reached a tech level roughly comparable to First Century Rome by 1492. When Columbus arrives, he runs finds large cities in the Caribbean whose inhabitants direct him to an even larger city at the mouth of the Mississippi. Goods and people cross the Atlantic in both directions for a few years and then... catastrophe.

The Americas are being ravaged by the same killers as in the OTL; smallpox, measles, and the like. However, Europe (and Asia as far as anyone in Europe can tell) is being ravaged by diseases produced in the New World. Neither population has defenses against the diseases the other has learned to live with.

I believe a short article describing the timeline is available for free at SJGames.

Finally, you've mentioned bison and turkeys as domestication targets in your TL. I feel strongly that you should also include ducks. The Mississippi is a huge flyway for waterfowl and the Han Chinese domesticed ducks very early on. You should take a long look at adding horses too, both as draft and riding animals. (Mr. Drye added glypodonts to the domestication list in Jenner-1. While fine for a RPG scenario, that idea doesn't bear even cursory scrutiny.)


Regards,
Bill
 
Thanks, that's probably for the best. I would like to spend a bit more time ramping up my point of view (mainly inspired by the solid research in the Lands of Red and Gold thread) but for the most part I'd like to just run with it.

As for the Columbian exchange issue, check further up the thread. There is a description of the Sweataches, a disease I based on a bison disease (brucellosis, which I am making the assumption existed in the New World prior to European contact, or at least an analogue of that disease). The disease arises from close human contact with domesticated or semi-domesticated disease in the Masaguay (the OTL Gulf coast), where a mutation that allows the disease to be spread by insects. It will spread like wildfire throughout the Old World, but particularly in the Tropics, and has so far been responsible for everything from French success in Italy, to the fall of the Ottoman empire and the near-collapse of the Indian ocean trade system.

However, I think that the balance of disease would still way heavily on the favour of Eurasia, due to the larger population and longer history of disease exchange. Smallpox, measles and stuff will have a much larger effect on the New World than the sweataches and syphillus will have on the Old.

I'll look into the ducks, they seem a likely candidate though not sure they'd have a very large effect on things. Not sure about the horses though, that would require another PoD and I've already got two and a half somewhat controversial PoDs on my plate as it is. :eek:
 
Finally, you've mentioned bison and turkeys as domestication targets in your TL. I feel strongly that you should also include ducks. The Mississippi is a huge flyway for waterfowl and the Han Chinese domesticed ducks very early on.
Ducks! I agree. At least two wild species are regularly kept domestically, mallards and wood ducks.

You should take a long look at adding horses too, both as draft and riding animals.
If you go back far enough to save horses, maybe something could be done with the American cheetahs.
 
Late to this discussion due to forest fires but regarding the rice cultivation the map shown on page 1 misses much of the area where it's found. When working in northern Ontario I was told that the Robison/Superior treaty with Ojibiway in that area was based upon fur trading posts (from the european view) and rice beds (from the Ojibiway view) and as there was little competition between the two initially the treaty was an easy one to sign.

Here in Northern Alberta we still have large wild rice flats the Cree harvest annually. Introduction of the Athabaskan language group tribes (Cree, Chipewayan, Beaver, Stony) means that your area of influnce has now covered much of Canada with settlement continueing much further north, east, and west reducing the influence of outfits like the Hudson Bay Company and settlement of the St.Lawrence River.

Add in the Salmon fishery and usage of the Ceder forests of the West coast and you have much of missing areas of North America filled in.

anywho..my two cents. Keep it up...it's an interesting read.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Interesting the effect on Africa of the discovery of America and later epidemic is going to enourmous. Without slaves African states has to focus on other item of trade with Europeans, agricultural and minineral, these will be harder to produce than a slave raid on the neighbour, leading to more native infrastructure and "industry", beside that instead of mais a different agricultural packet will likely be introduce, especially if the epidimic also hit the cattle. I imagine rice both new world and Asian would be likely, these are labour intensive crops meaning that more organise state need to evolve. The result could be more centralise and stronger African states, which be seen much more as equals by the European rather than savages.
 
Top