Missile Gunboats in WW2?

Without a demand for it until, what, 1943? When the Germans began to realize just how damn dangerous maritime patrol a/c could be? (AFAIK, nobody in 1918 really got it.)

So it's like Foo-fighters, anti-grav and other mythical nazi-tech that idiotic west and Soviets couldn't duplicate for 20+ years?

Nothing magical about it: POD 1919 moves the start date on research up about 10yr (maybe 20).

This requires that it's recognised as a possibility, that money is available and that all sorts of other supporting technologies also be advanced. Probability is low on the first, non-existent on the second and low on the third.

The contrast against the hot ship is what matters, compared to the lower contrast of (warmer) land.

And yet Felix was only just capable of going after steel mills and factories.

If necessary. Or use a wide-beam aerial. How wide is the beam fan at 2mi? At 10?

Without centrimetric radar pretty wide - way to much for the accuracy needed.

It does. And on how powerful the signal has to be, & how wide a beam is needed. Here's the thing: by 1944, the U.S. had radars fitted into periscopes. The ST heads were on retractable masts (IIRC; useable at about 30' keel depth anyhow). I don't think the problems are as big as you do; I'll admit, they may be bigger than I realize.

1944 - so late war again, too late for Germany to develop anything like this.

...And harping on subs again... I like the idea of it being available for subs, but I don't demand it.

Lucky that... :D
 
ModernKiwi said:
So it's like Foo-fighters, anti-grav and other mythical nazi-tech that idiotic west and Soviets couldn't duplicate for 20+ years?
What part of "not OTL" are you having trouble with?:rolleyes:
ModernKiwi said:
This requires that it's recognised as a possibility, that money is available and that all sorts of other supporting technologies also be advanced. Probability is low on the first, non-existent on the second and low on the third.
See "different Versailles" above. Take away one option, offer another, do you genuinely believe even the Nazis are so stupid they'll ignore it?:rolleyes:
ModernKiwi said:
And yet Felix was only just capable of going after steel mills and factories.
And yet I'm unaware of failed attempts to hit ships. Care to share?
ModernKiwi said:
Without centrimetric radar pretty wide - way to much for the accuracy needed.
Why? It's not like you have to generate a blip: just an echo for the missile seeker to track on...
ModernKiwi said:
1944 - so late war again, too late for Germany to develop anything like this.
What part of "not OTL" do you not understand? :rolleyes:
 
Oh well since we're not talking OTL, I see where this could come from...

MagicalWunderwaffen.jpg
 
Evidently someone has forgotten the underlying principle of AH: it's not OTL. Which means it may seem improbable...
 
Two degrees is not a typo. The ships armors generally was designed to stop a very specific threat (your current assessment of main enemy current gun or next gun). The armor is hugely heavy, so you don't protect against shot coming from outside expect range. The armor rapidly tapperred. And there are reason that even if weight was less of an issue, you limit armor. Going from 1" to 2" steel in the weather deck makes a BB more vulnerable to AP fire from other BB by changing the angle of the shell to closer to 90 degrees. And all this feeds into the concept of invulnerability zones in WW2 for BB.

I'm aware of the concept of the invulnerability zone, thanks. But as far as I can tell, your "two degrees" figure is completely arbitrary. You seem to be saying something like "If this weapon hit at an angle that was two degrees off the angle at which it would have penetrated, then a two degree change in attack angle would often defeat the armour." Which is completely true, and fundamentally meaningless.

Going back to your original post, you referred to a rocket with in "level flight", which is a pretty good approximation to the flight of a heavy shell, and will lead to the rocket hitting, if it hits armour, the thickest part of the belt. You refer to tapered armour, but this is normally present below the waterline, where it will not be hit by a rocket in the horizontal flight that you describe! If it doesn't hit armour then, yes, it will have the ability to mission-kill by destroying sensors etc - but this is an ability that gunfire already has!

So really, what is the point? In a 1930-1940s environment, you end up with a weapon system that has no range advantage over cruiser or heavier gunfire and involves you placing a limited number of maintenance-intensive flammable, explosive missiles in positions vulnerable to damage by enemy action or the weather.

Calling people naive does not further discussion.

Navies make decision to fund or not fund technologies all the time. Often promising ideas are not funding. The interwar years saw very tough naval budget (almost nothing for Germany). It was merely a choice.

I explained why I thought that your attitude was naive, and I will try to do so again, more clearly. The existence and direction of funding is not "merely a choice", it is a product of internal and external economic and political factors. For example, the US did not "merely choose" to develop the technology required to send men to the moon, it did so because it was involved in a technological and ideological conflict with the USSR.

If you want Germany to develop ship-launched guided missiles, then you need an environment that not only makes that a good idea, but also excludes otherwise superior ideas - such as mounting them on aircraft instead! For an early-mid C20 Germany, this would seem to involve a naval threat being greater than a land threat, hostility with the UK, economic strength and no defeat in WW1, no air bases along the Dutch/Belgian/French coast. That appears to describe a shorter WW1 with a German victory in the east and status quo bellum ante in the west territorially, but not militarily. Now, that's a plausible enough outcome - no unrestricted submarine warfare would be a good starting point - but the point is that it requires a pretty huge change in the geopolitical environment. It's quite clearly not "merely a choice"!

Get the environment right and the funding will follow naturally. Otherwise, you're just handwaving the funding into reality.
 
King Augeas said:
you end up with a weapon system that has no range advantage over cruiser or heavier gunfire
I'd say, at a minimum, 30mi is an advantage over an 8" cruiser, if not over 14"-16". It damn sure is for an DD, never mind an MGB (or S-boat).:eek:
King Augeas said:
If you want Germany to develop ship-launched guided missiles, then you need an environment that not only makes that a good idea, but also excludes otherwise superior ideas - such as mounting them on aircraft instead!
I agree on the first. On the second, size & weight would be pretty obvious limits: how many aircraft could carry a 2500-3000pd weapon with a span of 10' or more? Especially when the weapon is no good (or not much good) for anything but anti-ship attacks?
King Augeas said:
no defeat in WW1
That seems to contradict the proposition Germany develop missiles in preference to heavy guns & battlecruisers...
King Augeas said:
no defeat in WW1, no air bases along the Dutch/Belgian/French coast. That appears to describe a shorter WW1 with a German victory in the east and status quo bellum ante in the west territorially, but not militarily.
I'm not following why this is an essential to get missiles, seaborne or otherwise. In fact, ISTM an alt-Versailles & German defeat, which restricts building cruisers/CBs/BBs, is exactly what you'd want to spark missile gunboats: actual naval inferiority (whence adopting the jeune ecole model), & restrictions on heavy artillery.
King Augeas said:
Get the environment right and the funding will follow naturally.
And an alt-Versailles which bans heavy ships & guns is just that.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Evidently someone has forgotten the underlying principle of AH: it's not OTL. Which means it may seem improbable...

This is silliness. Things can be perfectly probable without resembling OTL and no says otherwise. What doesn't fly is hiding behind a straw man like yours because you have a kink for Jetpack Templars in the crusades. "If Roger Bacon had experimented with gunpowder a little more..." No. You are being silly. Stop it!
 

Range. My thinking here is that the problem is less one of range, and more one of target recognition, identification and location. You can't attack something if you don't know where or what it is, and I suspect primitive guided missiles will need to be pointed at the target fairly accurately to be effective. While in good weather conditions they might have an advantage at range, at night or in bad weather - common conditions in the North Sea or North Atlantic - I don't think they offer much usable range advantage over medium-calibre gunfire. I appreciate that radar lets us sidestep some of these problems, but radar didn't have those capabilities when these missiles would be being designed.

Suitable aircraft - I don't know. Do-17 or Ju-88 can carry a decent mass, but the wings could be a problem. Modifications may be possible? But I do dispute that there were no alternative targets. A guided weapon capable of occasionally hitting a ship is also capable of attacking border fortifications, bridges and railway junctions, which may be much more important to Germany - depending on the geopolitical environment, of course.

Heavy artillery restrictions. An interesting point, I've wondered myself how much Versailles' heavy artillery restrictions influenced funding for Von Braun. Some TLs suggest that a better German result in WW1 would lead to earlier missiles, but I've always suspected that the opposite is more likely, with money instead being directed to the tried-and-trusted heavy artillery.

An alt-Versailles that restricts heavy artillery and ships doesn't help, because OTL Versailles did this and it didn't help. Funding went into land-based missiles to replace the role of artillery and to counter the pre-eminent land threat to Germany, and to submarines which had been proven in WW1. To avoid this, we need to reduce the land threat to Germany - which precludes an alt-Versailles... Catch-22.
 
King Augeas said:
the problem is less one of range, and more one of target recognition, identification and location. You can't attack something if you don't know where or what it is, and I suspect primitive guided missiles will need to be pointed at the target fairly accurately to be effective. While in good weather conditions they might have an advantage at range, at night or in bad weather - common conditions in the North Sea or North Atlantic - I don't think they offer much usable range advantage over medium-calibre gunfire.
I'm not seeing the problem. If you're firing into a convoy, which (being part of a wolfpack) you know is there, the chances to hit something seem pretty good. Even better is being able to attack without the enemy escort even knowing you're there.:cool:
King Augeas said:
radar lets us sidestep some of these problems, but radar didn't have those capabilities when these missiles would be being designed.
I'm not seeing how the state of radar tech bears on this.
King Augeas said:
Suitable aircraft
Again, not an issue. There will be some bleed-over to a/c-carried weaps.
King Augeas said:
I do dispute that there were no alternative targets. A guided weapon capable of occasionally hitting a ship is also capable of attacking border fortifications, bridges and railway junctions, which may be much more important to Germany
Agreed. And more important, also, to the Allies. More beneficial than bombing cities, too.:rolleyes:
King Augeas said:
Heavy artillery restrictions. An interesting point, I've wondered myself how much Versailles' heavy artillery restrictions influenced funding for Von Braun. Some TLs suggest that a better German result in WW1 would lead to earlier missiles, but I've always suspected that the opposite is more likely, with money instead being directed to the tried-and-trusted heavy artillery.

An alt-Versailles that restricts heavy artillery and ships doesn't help, because OTL Versailles did this and it didn't help. Funding went into land-based missiles to replace the role of artillery and to counter the pre-eminent land threat to Germany, and to submarines which had been proven in WW1. To avoid this, we need to reduce the land threat to Germany - which precludes an alt-Versailles... Catch-22.
Now I'm confused. The issue wasn't Germany doing better, it was tougher restrictions on Germany at Versailles. You appear to agree this would lead to more missile development, which was the proposed approach to get to WW2 MTBMs or *DDGs. Am I misunderstanding, & you disagree?
 
I swear I read somewhere that the USN had plans for a petrol fuelled SAM in '45.

If they did have such plans, it would have been fueled by kerosene, not petrol.

I recall reading about plans for a gasoline-fueled SAM somewhere, and after a bit of digging, I was able to find a 1947 report from Convair detailing work on an experimental SAM that would have been propelled by a ramjet burning a mix of avgas & liquid oxygen once in flight & up to speed, which on paper had a max speed of Mach 2. (A solid-fuel booster rocket would have been used for launching & getting the missile up to Mach 1.4) The whole project kind of seems like a sort of proto-Talos, & obviously never entered service, & I'm not sure if there was even a full-scale test firing.

The report can be downloaded as a PDF from here- http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/PA-IV_AR_JuneJuly_47.pdf - it's too big to attach
 

Firing primitive first-generation missiles blindly into in the general direction of sea occupied by a small coastal convoy sounds like a really good way of achieving nothing. Come on, look at the WW2 guided weapons that did work, you needed to get into visual range and stay there.

The state of radar tech doesn't affect this, that was my entire point. These missiles wouldn't have been designed to interact with a radar fire-control system, because such a system didn't exist. You're left with the eyeball as your fire-control system.

Heavy artillery - I think we're in agreement. OTL shows that the bans on heavy artillery and capital ships were insufficient to drive prewar German naval guided missile development. More powerful drivers are needed.
 
King Augeas said:
the general direction of sea occupied by a small coastal convoy
40 ships covering an area of several square miles?:confused::confused:
King Augeas said:
look at the WW2 guided weapons that did work, you needed to get into visual range and stay there.
Because every single one relied on CLOS guidance...:rolleyes: If you'd bothered to actually read the thread, you'd know that was rejected almost from the first.
King Augeas said:
radar fire-control system, because such a system didn't exist.
Huh?:confused::confused: In the first place, radar ranging for gunlaying was routine by war's end. In the second, radar warning receivers were commonplace. You count it impossible to measure signal strength in an autonomous weapon?
King Augeas said:
bans on heavy artillery and capital ships were insufficient to drive prewar German naval guided missile development. More powerful drivers are needed.
IIRC, Germany OTL wasn't flat prohibited from having ships heavier than DDs or MTBs, which was the suggested driver.
 
Somebody asked what use the Allies would have for a guided missile.

Here's one: ASW. In the days before ASV radar became common, a DD-launched flying bomb able to destroy subs would have been extremely useful.



BTW: bump.:p
 
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